Harry's Role in OotP (long) (was:Re: "Some won't like it"...)

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 130136

>>Phoenixgod: 
>You misunderstand me. I said in my post that you could argue that he 
was drafted by destiny, but Tonks was saying that Harry should be a 
good little soldier and blindly do what he was told by his superiors. 
He certainly wasn't drafted by any earthly army so that arguement 
doesn't hold up imo. Harry is under no duty to do anything that DD 
and Snape want that doesn't directly apply to his schooling.<

Betsy Hp:
I was replying more to Lupinlore's implication that Harry was well 
out of the fight until mean old Dumbledore pulled him in.  But if 
you're talking an actual draft notice you'll need to point out an 
actual WW army.  IOW, I doubt Lily or James or Sirius or Lupin 
received any draft papers either.

And since Occlumency was an actual lesson under an actual professor 
and assigned by the actual headmaster of an actual school, Harry was 
indeed under an obligation to behave like an actual student.

>>Betsy Hp:
>I don't recall Dumbledore ever being referred to as a sadistic 
moron.<  
>"Listen to me Harry," he said urgently, "you must study Occlumency 
as hard as you can, do you understand me?  Do everything Professor 
Sanpe tells you and practice it particularly every night before 
sleeping so that you can close your mind to bad dreams -- you will 
understand why soon enough but you must promise me --" (OotP p.622)<

>>Phoenixgod: 
>Good point. but once again, its all vague threats and dire (but 
shadowy) warnings. There is no why in his answer.<
<snip>

Betsy Hp:
Here's where I go, "Awwww, poor baby Potter having to operate with 
only vague threats and shadowy warnings.  Life is soooo hard for 
you," with little to no pity since the prophecy Dumbledore has been 
acting under is pretty much a vague hope and shadowy warnings.  
Welcome to a semi-realistic battle field, kid.  The enemy won't be 
wearing black hats and he sure as hell ain't sharing his plans with 
you. 

I'll also posit that Dumbledore may not have had an exact "why".  I 
don't think he knew exactly how Voldemort would choose to attack 
Harry, he just had the knowledge that Voldemort had realized there 
was a mental link.  (We don't even know how exactly Dumbledore 
learned this fact.  His cool silver toys?  A darn good guess?  Intel 
from Snape?)  I think Dumbledore may have been acting under the idea 
that Voldemort having *any* kind of control over Harry was a bad 
thing.

And he weren't wrong.  As Amanda pointed out in her Occlumency post, 
Voldemort *did* have control over Harry and it did nearly screw 
things up but good for the Order.  Fortunately Snape came through in 
the crunch and Dumbledore proved, once again, that he thinks damn 
well on his feet.

>>Phoenixgod: 
>As other people pointed out Harry was specifically belittled and 
made to feel unimportant by Snape during the lessons. I don't think 
that impressed on Harry the seriousness of the situation. To him, I 
think he saw the lessons as onerus make-work, and yet another cross 
added to his burden.<

Betsy Hp:
Actually, I thought Snape was strangely *supportive* of Harry 
throughout the lessons.  He didn't do anything with the majorly 
embarrassing information he culled from Harry's mind.  He didn't get 
upset when Harry invaded his mind, he even *praised* Harry for it.

"Well, Potter... that was certainly an improvement...." [...] "I 
don't remember telling you to use a Sheild Charm... but there is no 
doubt that it was effective...." (OotP scholastic p.592)

And while he demanded Harry treat him with respect (calling him 
professor or sir, not interrupting) he answered all the questions he 
could.  If Harry did see the lessons as "make-work" it wasn't because 
of any action of Snape's.  I personally think it was Voldemort's 
work, because frankly, I don't think Harry's usually that stupid.

>>Phoenixgod: 
>As for DD, he had done precious little that year to earn any 
goodwill for Harry. And I certainly wouldn't put any trust in a man 
who wouldn't look me in the eye for a year either.<

Betsy Hp:
*sigh*  Okay.  If that's how you want to see it, if you want to 
completely ignore the murderous and animalistic rage that swept 
through Harry whenever Dumbledore *did* look him in the eye, or the 
obvious manuvering Dumbledore had to do to keep the Ministry as out 
of Hogwarts as possible, fine.  There's nothing I can say.  I suppose 
we'll have to ignore Dumbledore's defense of Harry keeping him out of 
Azkaban and in Hogwarts at the beginning of OotP, and Dumbledore's 
sacrifice of his headmaster position to once again keep Harry in 
Hogwarts in the middle of OotP too.   And yes, if *all* of those 
factors and incidents are removed, Dumbledore was shockingly lazy and 
mean.  (We'll do best to ignore the many times Dumbledore has saved 
Harry's life as well.  That might just confuse the issue.)

>>Phoenixgod:
>Remember, while this is a short period of time for a novel, the time 
span is a year. that is days upon days, weeks upon weeks, and months 
upon months of being left in the dark, isolated, beset on all sides 
by enemies both within and without the school.  That is a long damn 
time for Dumbledore to leave Harry twisting in the wind.<

Betsy Hp:
I can see your point here, Phoenixgod.  And it's unfortunate that 
Dumbledore was *unable* to approach Harry and only Snape had the 
ability to help Harry.  I think Dumbledore hoped that the DA club 
(the equivalent of a junior Order) would keep Harry occupied and give 
him a sense of accomplishment.  Again, I don't think anyone realized 
how deeply Voldemort had sunk into Harry's mind.  Because I think the 
biggest frustration for Harry, throughout OotP, was trying to figure 
out what was in the DoM.  And honestly, that wasn't really Harry's 
bugaboo, it was Voldemort's.  

>>Phoenixgod: 
>Of course they [the dreams] also saved someones life and was proving 
to be Harry's only source of information for an entire year.  I 
wouldn't want to shut that down with what I knew either.<

Betsy Hp:
So you wouldn't mind the thought that your greatest enemy had total 
access to your mind?  And could make you feel or do things against 
your will?  I would add that the dreams provided Harry with a lot of 
*false* information.

>>Betsy Hp:
>After you finish laughing, Lupinlore, I'd love to hear your 
explanations as to the many times Snape has saved Harry's life...<
<snip>

>>Phoenixgod: 
>Because Dumbledore is his boss and even Snape isn't going to want to 
watch a child die if he could stop it.<

Betsy Hp:
So answer me this, why didn't McGonagall do anything?  Or Flitwick?  
Or Sprout?

>>Betsy Hp:
>But if that's the case than there's *no way* Harry should ever be  
allowed *near* the Order.  If Harry is so extremely disconnected from 
his actions then he is far too much a child to take any part in a 
war. Dumbledore holds some blame, but Harry hold some blame as well.  
>For Harry to become an adult he must recognize and atone for the 
mistakes he's made so that he doesn't make them again.<

>>Phoenixgod: 
>Harry doesn't need to *atone* for anything. Atoning implies that 
Harry has sinned and I don't think he has.<
<snip>

Betsy Hp:
Rather than get into a symantics argument I'll reword.  Harry needs 
to learn from and make amends for his mistakes.  As Dumbledore has 
(and is probably still) doing.  As Snape has been doing (IMO) for 
five books.  I'm not saying Harry has commited a great and horrible 
sin for which he must crawl through broken glass.  A simple apology 
to Ron and the others would go a long way, I think.  I don't even 
expect an apology to Snape (though a thank you for saving my life. 
Again. would be nice).  Only then will Harry be able to grow, I 
think.  And maybe he'll do a bit more conferring with others and a 
little less rushing in.
  
>>Betsy Hp:
>Yes, Dumbledore erred, but not *that* badly.  (Unless I totally 
misread the ending of OotP, the Order scored a bit of a victory 
there.)

>>Phoenixgod: 
>Depends on your definition.  If it was a victory then it was a small 
one compared to the losses and damage done.<

Betsy Hp:
Okay, I'm going to come across as cold-hearted here, but the only 
Order loss was Sirius.  I like Sirius, and I hate that he died, but 
he was the weakest Order member, and his personal issues nearly 
compromised Harry's life.  Voldemort *still* doesn't know the whole 
prophecy and his resurrection has been exposed.  Voledomort also lost 
a very well placed Death Eater (Malfoy) who even if not held in 
Azkaban for long will not have the same influence over WW affairs he 
used to have.

The loss of Sirius was a strong blow to Harry, and that is probably 
the worst thing that happened.  But Harry, though important of 
course, is not, at this time, the most important member of the 
Order.  That would be Dumbledore, and he is still functioning.
 
>>Betsy Hp:
<snip>
>I thought you saw Dumbledore as a hopeless idiot and cold-hearted 
bastard from SS/PS on?
<snip>
>So if you think Dumbledore was an idiot in OotP, wouldn't that be an 
example of JKR's consistency?<

>>Phoenixgod:
<snip of pre-OotP praise for Dumbledore>
>That man disappeared in OOTP and he was replaced by someone I didn't 
recognize and certainly didn't like.  Where did the man go who told 
Harry at the end of the previous year that he had shouldered adult 
burdens and bore them well? Why couldn't he have trusted Harry one 
more time like he had so many other times before when even he himself 
had been caught off guard?<

Betsy Hp:
Dumbledore, IMO, did not change a bit in OotP.  He kept a secret he 
told Harry he was going to keep in PS/SS.  He allowed Harry to get 
into his schoolboy adventures (the battle against Umbridge) and at 
the same time did his best to keep Harry safe.  The one who changed, 
again IMO, was Harry.  Harry had always seen Dumbledore as almost god-
like in his powers and knowledge.  Now that Harry is growing up he's 
starting to realize that the all-powerful adults around him are 
merely human.

Betsy Hp