Harry's Role in OotP (long)

[Renee Daniels]

No: HPFGUIDX 130144


> Betsy Hp:
> 
> And since Occlumency was an actual lesson under an actual 
professor and assigned by the actual headmaster of an actual school, 
Harry was indeed under an obligation to behave like an actual 
student.
> 

Me (Calimora): 
To that, no, just no. 

If my dean of genetics comes to me and tells me it is vitaly 
important for me to master the Kama Sutra so I must attend practical 
lessons with my chemistry professor, I have a right to say no. Even 
if I have been listening to his advice for four years. (I don't care 
if I have a duty to procrate or not.)

You might say that this is a bad anology, but consider Harry's state 
after each lesson. Exhausted, angry, humiliated, his every thought, 
emotion, experience and secret laid bare to a man he loaths. As 
savior to the wizarding world he Might have an obligation to endure 
this, but NOT for his role as a student.

> Betsy Hp:
> Here's where I go, "Awwww, poor baby Potter having to operate with 
> only vague threats and shadowy warnings.  Life is soooo hard for 
> you," with little to no pity since the prophecy Dumbledore has 
> been acting under is pretty much a vague hope and shadowy 
> warnings. Welcome to a semi-realistic battle field, kid.  The 
> enemy won't be wearing black hats and he sure as hell ain't 
> sharing his plans with you. 

Me:

I can never find fault when Harry chooses not to react to the vague 
and shadowy warnings. His whole life at Hogwarts has been vague and 
shadowy warnings compounded with vague and shadowy threats, but 
prior to OotP Harry and friends have always come through unscathed. 
In fact, prior to the department fiasco, the only death or maiming 
Harry had ever seen came entirely without warning. (i.e. Cedric and 
Barty Crouch, Jr.)



> >>Phoenixgod: 
> >As for DD, he had done precious little that year to earn any 
> >goodwill for Harry. And I certainly wouldn't put any trust in a 
> >man who wouldn't look me in the eye for a year either.<
 
> Betsy Hp:
> *sigh*  Okay.  If that's how you want to see it, if you want to 
> completely ignore the murderous and animalistic rage that swept 
> through Harry whenever Dumbledore *did* look him in the eye.

Me:
I'm with PhoenixGod, on this one. 'Dumbledore couldn't even look at 
him' is not an excuse for leaving your orphaned protege twisting in 
the wind for a year. Not in a society with ink and paper.

"Dear Harry, I'm sorry we can't speak face to face right now. I'll 
tell you why - in person - once you've mastered Occulmency.

-Dumbledore
p.s. Feel to send a note via houselves any time you need me."

An 'explanation' and a goad for his curiosity - solid motivation for 
Harry - all in one. No vague 'you will understand soon enough' 
(which he didn't).

> Betsy Hp:
> or the obvious manuvering Dumbledore had to do to keep the 
> Ministry as out of Hogwarts as possible, fine. 

Me: 
Nobody likes an Idiot trampling their turf. And Fudge is 
demonstrateably an Idiot.


> Betsy Hp:
> we'll have to ignore Dumbledore's defense of Harry keeping him out
> of Azkaban and in Hogwarts at the beginning of OotP, and 
> Dumbledore's sacrifice of his headmaster position to once again
> keep Harry in Hogwarts in the middle of OotP too.

Me:
You have a valid point here. Sort of.

A) Dumbledore is fighting a war. One that the ministry doesn't want 
him to fight. In a way, It was probably easier for him to do it from 
hiding than in the well watched fish bowl of Hogwarts.

B) How much of a sacrifice was it? All of the teachers were still 
loyal to him. The students that loathed Umbridge still loathed her. 
What I thought was the most blanant abuse of power, The Inquistorial 
Squad, was made while Dumbledore was still there. So the students 
were distracted from their studies and learned and learned nothing 
in DADA, just like most other years. All that changed was that Harry 
no longer had even the possiblity of asking Dumbledore for help (not 
that Harry would have).



> >>Phoenixgod: 
> >Of course they [the dreams] also saved someones life and was 
> >proving to be Harry's only source of information for an entire 
> >year.  I wouldn't want to shut that down with what I knew either.
>
>
> Betsy Hp:
> So you wouldn't mind the thought that your greatest enemy had 
> total access to your mind?  And could make you feel or do things 
> against your will?  I would add that the dreams provided Harry 
> with a lot of *false* information.

Me:
Three things to keep in mind in addition to PheonixGod's information 
point: 

One, The Dreams Saved a Weasley. 

Two, Prior to Bellatrix killing Sirius, Snape was Harry's *second* 
greatest enemy. And from Harry's point of veiw, a heck of a lot more 
prevelent on a day to day basis than Voldemort.

Three, The only information that was proven to Harry to be false was 
the DoM. And that was discovered a little late.



> Betsy Hp:
> Dumbledore, IMO, did not change a bit in OotP.  He kept a secret 
> he told Harry he was going to keep in PS/SS.  He allowed Harry to 
> get into his schoolboy adventures (the battle against Umbridge) 
> and at the same time did his best to keep Harry safe.  The one who 
> changed, again IMO, was Harry.  Harry had always seen Dumbledore 
> as almost godlike in his powers and knowledge.  Now that Harry is 
> growing up he's starting to realize that the all-powerful adults 
> around him are merely human.

Me:
Dumbledore did stay the same. But so did Harry (with the exception 
of ALLCAPS) and therein lies the problem. The situation had changed. 
While I have issues characterizing any event that requires a 
prepubidecent child to slaughter a poisonous man eating snake or 
help a convict escape from the authorities as 'schoolboy' anything, 
I do agree that Dumbledore managed to manage them. Indeed, they were 
often urged on by his cryptic statments. The difference was that the 
stakes had changed, and the secret Harry was looking for was one of 
Dumbledore's. 

As to Dumbledore not being all powerful and God like. Read it again. 
Specificaly the scene where Dumbledore takes out a squad of aurors 
in his office and where he saves Harry next to the Fountain of 
Magical Brethern. If that's not Deux Ex Machina, I don't know what 
is.

~Calimora (getting a bit shirty, sorry about that.)