The good Slytherin / Salazar (Ye Purebloods, Merlin was What!?)

[madorganization]

No: HPFGUIDX 131276

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "unicorn_72" <Unicorn_72 at y...> 
wrote:

<snipped>
 I don't see monks 
> or nuns here, in this wizarding community I have read about so 
far, 
> these people are having kids, and getting married, and by the 
amount 
> of students that are showing up at Hogwarts. I don't see them as, 
holy 
> obstainers...meh..maybe that went to the religious idea I replied 
to 
> earlier in this thread, so, take that as it is, just an offhand 
> comment.


Alisha:
Well, there is the Fat Friar.  Also, I think the issue of religious 
figures was brought up to show that it's possible Helga and Rowena 
could have been educated, single women brought up in a convent, and 
therefore considered with reverence and equality.


> 
> I don't think these ideals all of a sudden came up now that Harry 
is 
> in school in the 90's. I imagine, perhaps as someone said, maybe 
the 
> original founders were, very religeous, or something to that 
affect, 
> so sqashing my notion of the founders being involved with each 
other, 
> I would still wager though, they may have though about being 
married 
> to each other, you can't get two men and two women together 
without 
> that though never occuring, but, maybe they were 
> workaholics...building a castle is a lot of work I imagine, even 
for 
> wizards. Yes, I can hear some of you argue that, you can indeed 
get 
> two men and women in a room and they will not think of getting 
> married, and this is a childrens book, but I wager, considering 
what I 
> know, if they were adults, that at least though it once.
> Perhaps that could have been why they seperated from the muggle 
> community, because they wanted to not worry about the women/man 
issue. 
> If that is so, I say, you go girls, Rowena and Helga sure trained 
> Godrick and Salizar, of course, one wonders how old they were when 
> they founded Hogwarts, I don't know if there is any canon to give 
> there ages..so...I'll digress from that.


Alisha:
What about the possibility of them having spouses outside the 
foursome?  Perhaps it's Salazar and Samantha Slytherin or Rowena and 
Robert Ravenclaw.


> 
> But, I also think, we are assuming something here, Was Hogwarts 
the 
> origination of the Wizarding World, Seperate from the Muggle 
World, or 
> was the Wizarding World, already seperated from the Muggle world? 
I 
> believe this is a what came first, the chicken or the egg question.

Alisha:
Wasn't the International Act of Wizarding Secrecy (or whatever it's 
called) set up in the 1400s?  So if Hogwart's was founded 1000 years 
before CoS, then it would have been about 400 years before the 
wizards separated from the muggles.


> 
> It might be considered that perhaps the teachers are the one's 
who, do 
> not have a family life, because being a teacher of magical 
children is 
> a full time job, but I also remember that JKR made a comment about 
> Professors being married, I suppose their is more to come of that.
> 
> The idea of being Pureblood, the big ideas of having kids continue 
the 
> pureblood ideals, and the pureblood line, don't seem like very non 
> gender related topic to me. It is harkening back to the days when 
> women were sold to the highest bidder, and, if these pureblood 
ideals 
> still exist, then I would say in the wizarding world it would 
still 
> have to go on to some extent, so, the book's don't seem to show, 
at 
> least to me, that they the wold JKR had created is minus in the 
normal 
> muggle gender bias. Families who are pureblood and also friends, 
would 
> have to assure their children married, and had children who were 
> pureblood.
> 
> That may be a mutual thing between the two who are going to marry, 
and 
> it may just be a time honored tradition in the Slytherin house, 
but, 
> it is also being brought up in a very non gender friendly way, if 
you 
> ask me. A woman would be forced to accept her family's choice, 
purely 
> based on the bloodline and nothing else.


Alisha:  I don't see how this flows logically from the pureblood 
ideal.  If the males in the family hold such prejudices, it is 
entirely possible that the females do as well.  There's no way of 
knowing what would happen to a woman who chose to marry a non-
pureblood wizard.  She would probably be disowned, but that is no 
different than what happens to Tonks' mother.  Narcissa Malfoy 
probably chose to marry a pureblood wizard based on her own 
prejudices not necessarily those of her family.  And inversely, if a 
wizard chose to marry a non-pureblood witch, he would also probably 
have been disowned.  It is not only the women who might have been 
pressured into marrying against their will.  In order for a family 
to remain "toujours pur", both the witches and the wizards would 
have to marry only purebloods.


> 
> The books also overflows with, family, Mother, Father, 
Child....and 
> those without a mother and father.
> The weasley's are a somewhat traditional family, mother says home, 
dad 
> works, they have a bunch of kids. The Malfoy's also purebloods, 
seem 
> to have the same system, father seems to be in charge from what we 
> have seen so far. Well, one might argue the point with the 
Weasley's 
> as to who is in charge, but by Arthur working, he is the 
breadwinner, 
> and theirfor head of house...I suppose one can argue that fact 
with 
> me..but anyway.


Alisha:
Again, I don't see this as entirely logical.  First of all, it is 
apparent that Narcissa carries at least some sway in the Malfoy 
household.  It was her decision for Draco to attend Hogwart's 
instead of Durmstrang.  
Also, it's possible that Molly chose to stay home with the 
children.  She seems a capable witch in her own right, I'm sure she 
could have gotten a job if she chose to.  The presence of a 
homemaker does not always indicate a patriarchal system.  And to say 
that since Arthur is the breadwinner he is the head of the house is 
simply propagating patriarchal values.  That's the argument that 
people have used for centuries to argue male superiority.  Since the 
man is the one who "works" he is the one to whom the female should 
submit.  The reason that men worked, historically, was because they 
were physiologically better suited to the work that needed to be 
done.  It is natural in many animals as well for one gender to do 
specific work because they are physically better capable. (Think of 
lionesses doing the hunting because the male lions' manes make them 
too conspicuous for stalking prey.)


> 
> The Weasley's also are pureblood, so, not all pureblood's are in 
> slytherin, Now I know, some of you are going to correct me, 
probably 
> with canon, someone said..yes I know, that being a pureblood is a 
> farce, no real wizard anymore is actually a pureblood. To get 
right 
> down to it, no wizard anywhere, has ever actually been pureblood. 
If I 
> remember correctly, the story based Merlin was born of a nun 
seduced 
> by an evil spirit, though, I very seriously doubt JKR is putting 
that 
> in her childrens book, though his name is used quite a lot, and 
that 
> is just the facts of the story Merlin, again, I didn't make it up.

Alisha:
This is only one version of the story of Merlin.  When it comes to 
legends, there are no "facts", only interpretations.


> 
> The roles to me seem very traditional, you might even take some of 
the 
> teachers as example. Dumbledore is in charge, McGonagall is second 
to 
> him at Hogwarts, again, keeping the traditional role of Male in 
> charge, female as the backup. OK, that might be taking it a bit 
too 
> far, but it is how the school is run, I didn't make it that way.
> 
> Again, Head of Houses, Snape/male, Flitwick/male, 
McGonagal/female, 
> Sprout/female, ok, no, I'm not saying there hooked up! (laughs) 
I'm 
> saying, you again, have an balance, two of each. I don't know if 
it 
> was always this way, but, it is what we are most aware of as far 
as 
> storyline goes.


Alisha:
JKR has pointed out several times that she intentionally kept the 
balance of teaching staff at Hogwart's 50% male and 50% female.  And 
there are certainly witches among the headmasters' portraits in DD's 
office, so while the current headmaster is male, that has apparently 
not always been the case.


> 
> I don't think there is going to be a flood in the books and 
everyone 
> is going to walk on the ark two by two, its just a noticable and 
very 
> real thing I see in the books. The woman have their role, and the 
men 
> also have theirs, is that gender bias, or whatever someone might 
say 
> about it or my opinon....I don't know really.
> 
> Are the books lacking in gender related topics,and has JKR made a 
> world where women and men are exactly the same, I don't think so, 
of 
> course, one can disagree with me on that, but, I see that, their 
is a 
> very real role that the men and women play in this 
story....generally 
> its just the fact of life, the story is reflecting reality, again, 
I 
> didn't make the laws of nature so don't blame me for it, or for 
> thinking it.


Alisha:
It seems to me that we have a very limited view of the majority of 
the wizarding world to be making these sort of assumptions.  I can 
only think of two cases that we know of where the husband "works" 
and the wife stays at home (Malfoys and Weasleys), but if you think 
about it, Lucius Malfoy doesn't really work.  He just manages the 
estate and keeps the wheels greased for his political maneuverings.  
Think about Amelia Bones.  She's very high up in the ministry.  
Think of Bellatrix Lestrange.  She's practically Voldemort's right 
hand woman.  Think of Neville's Gran.  Although a generally 
umpleasant person, she seems to be the head of her family.  


> 
> Though, you can blame me for my twisted since of humor, I still 
say 
> Salizar pined after Rowena, dang it! How boring is it if they were 
all 
> 200 years old...and never even looked at each other once..that 
seems 
> boring...I say they had a few arguments, and not just over what 
kids 
> to let into school.
> I'll bet Rowena told Salizar he's not putting his stinking pet 
> basalisk in the castle, she told him better put the dang thing as 
far 
> away from her as possible or she is going to chop out its eyes 
> and....ok..again, my imagination is running away with me again.
> "But Row...hes really a nice sort of snake."
> "I told you, if you bring that thing into the castle, I'll not 
talk to 
> you for a week!"
> 
> Ok, I'll stop now, I know my humor is bad.
> 


Alisha:
I find your humor to be quite amusing actually.  The idea of Rowena 
putting her foot down made me chuckle!


-Alisha: who has surprised herself once again with her vehement 
rejections of supposed misogyny.