Self-taught Occlumency? I think not

[nrenka]

No: HPFGUIDX 126906


--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> 
wrote:

> Pippin:
> 
> Great though Snape's knowledge be, as Gandalf would say, it must 
> have a source, which isn't necessarily in the library, even if 
> Hermione has access to the restricted section. What about Snape's 
> office, or Dumbledore's? (People will keep giving him books.)  Can 
> the ROR draw from outside Hogwarts? Perhaps from under the drawing 
> room floor in Malfoy Manor? 

I was suggesting that Snape's knowledge was perhaps acquired not 
primarily from books, but from experience with a teacher.  There are 
all sorts of things that can be described in books, but are best 
taught with the minimum of a teacher in conjunction with books.  
Piano, any martial art, and meditation are ones that immediately come 
to mind.

> Point is, Harry didn't try, didn't ask. It's canon that there is 
> writing on Imperius resistance, which Snape says requires similar 
> technique.

Can you point me to the 'writing' part of this canon?  I see Crouch!
Moody saying that Imperius can be resisted, and this can be taught.

> Harry hasn't read those either, AFAWK, though Snape probably thinks 
> he has. It was an assignment in fourth year DADA. (I don't have my 
> books with me for the reference.)

There is generic mention of 'books' on the subject--but this is on 
the Unforgiveable Curses in general.  No further mention is made of 
how to resist it; the only information we are given about it is when 
Harry actually *does* so, in GF 15--the little dialogue with Harry 
and his Inner Voice.

Now, isn't it interesting that Crouch!Moody insists that the students 
actually BE the targets of the curse to learn how to resist it?  That 
suggests a training model where you need to start out on a smaller 
scale and work your way up.  Not to mention one where these largely 
non-existent books you cite aren't going to help like real experience.

> Pippin:
> As far as the 'tester' goes, Harry had Voldemort.

Not a good tester--see above, with Crouch!Moody's comment "If you'd 
rather learn the hard way--when someone's putting it on you so they 
can control you completely...".  Good testers start low and let you 
know what they're doing, and then escalate the force to keep your 
skills on the edge.

That's not even to mention that it can be surmised from the end of 
the book conversation that Harry and Voldemort's link is something at 
least slightly different from the normal one caused by Legilimency.

> Of course Harry might have only slight abilities as an occlumens, 
> but in that case he was never going to be good enough to resist 
> Voldy anyway.

There's a very profound difference in "slight abilities" from the 
beginning and "never going to be good enough".  I've seen people who 
could never have taught themselves martial arts become fairly 
exceptional in the hands of a good teacher.  Ultimate skill in an 
area and the ability to teach it to oneself do not exist in a one-to-
one ratio.  Not all world-class concert pianists are self-taught; in 
fact, I think relatively few are.
 
> I'd be surprised if JKR thinks there is only one right way to learn 
> anything-- do you see canon for that?

No--but I have a model which makes very good sense to me for why 
Harry had such difficulties with Occlumency.  It's admittedly modeled 
paralleling an RL activity, and it has holes--but every account of 
Occlumency does.
 
> Pippin
> interested to hear Nora's theory on the proper teaching of 
> Occlumency. And wondering if Nora thinks that  Snape was taught 
> that way, and if not, why Snape would want to experiment with an 
> untried method when so much was at stake

Snape's education in Occlumency and skills at it are my admitted 
hole.  However, we have some hints in canon as to Dumbledore' 
ultimate disappointment in Snape's actions as teacher.  Is it really 
so hard to imagine Snape letting his personal interests and feelings 
get the better of him--unless you want to cling to the MD reading of 
Snape in the Shack, it makes thematic sense for the character.

-Nora dredges up the file