Through the Veil (Was: The Iron Fist of Will - (more) additional thoughts)

[M.Clifford]

No: HPFGUIDX 142477


*(snip)*
Valky:
> Okay Just for good measure here's my third and favourite (yet
> fanficcy/fantasy) version, not logical entirely, but it has all the
> elements I wish to see.
><snip>
>  Harry finally reunited with his parents
> discovers that he will not be able to stay with them because he is in
> a state of limbo and they are properly dead, and they also discover
> that Harry can't get back out without a body that has come through
> the front door.<snip>. SO his only way out is to
> take Sirius with him.

Ceridwen:
I don't get how Harry bringing Sirius's body out of the veil would
bring Sirius back. The body would now be available for burial and
proper mourning, 


Valky:
I hadn't rifled through the logistics of this option before I posted
it, so I appreciate and understand your contention Ceridwen. Option
three, as I said, is my fantasy ending, I'd be thrilled if the series
ended on these notes but I can't say it's canonically backed up to the
letter. At least not just yet. ;D

I agree that bringing Sirius' body back through the veil could simply
mean that Harry brings him back dead. It is possible that, assuming
Harry goes through the veil untouched and meets with Sirius, that
either Sirius is 'too properly dead' to come back to life, or
otherwise unable to walk back through the veil alive. OTOH this could
still make a good story IMO which could like something like this -
Harry's conciousness behind the veil is different to Sirius'
conciousness, because Harry has not technically 'died'. So Harry can
go back the way he came but he cannot pass bodily through the barrier
between the worlds without dying unless there is another body present
which he can use to get through the barrier. 

This scenario would be intensely bangy, because Harry would have to
Possess Sirius, and possession is very painful for the possessed (see
Harry in the MOM). Sirius would die in agony but possibly save Harry
from a fate worse than death by doing so. 



Ceridwen:
but two spirits just couldn't leave the veil, even
if they're in one body. If they could, then Sirius would have
theoretically (IMO) been able to leave when he fell through. 


Valky:
If we refer to the myths of the underworld, the souls of the dead
drink from the river Lethe, which erases their memory so they cannot
find their way back out of Hades, Sirius having gone through the veil
bodily alone could have been said to have drunk from this river, while
Harry has not, or IOW if the underworld myth is followed, as I expect
it will be, then the reason Sirius can not return is because he has
'forgotten where he came in'. While Harry, who has entered differently
'remembers'.

It could plotwise be explained, I suppose, by the notion that Harry's
'conciousness' is still attached to his life - similar to your
speculation - and that it is that conciousness itself that makes it
possible to go back through the veil. 



Ceridwen:
 I can see a possible scenario where, the longer Harry's
consciousness remains behind the veil, the more of his soul/spirit
energy follow him (which would be what was keeping his consciousness
intact), and that sooner or later, if he stayed long enough, his non-
physical parts would join him there permanently, and the body would
drop dead.

I could probably get into the soul/spirit differences again, though I
got completely lost when we did that before. But even if the
consciousness belongs to one or the other, I would expect that both
must be present in some measure for Harry (not the body) to really
be 'beyond the veil'. If consciousness is soul, then, the lack of
spirit being with him would tie him to his body, something like a
naturally-functioning horcrux. If it's the spirit which holds
consciousness, then the lack of soul would anchor the root of
consciousness back in the body. 


Valky:
I would say I see it the opposite way. I would say that conciousness
is *not* soul in the Potterverse but rather the power/tool of the body
mind and soul. And I would guess that possession is a power of
conciousness and not soul mind or body individually.

Lets break it down into the powers that Voldemort transferred to Harry - 
There is Parsel Tongue which relates to Voldemorts Blood, I would
relate that to soul, myself.
Then there is Legilimency which is definitely a power of the mind.
That leaves Body and I suspect that this is the scar on Harry which
uniquely qualifies him to destroy Horcruxes with 'terrible curses' on
them. I am very happy with that but it is of course debatable.

Now if we assume that, and then assume that Possession is a power of
the conciousness, I would then say that possession engages body mind
and soul. Or IOW The whole of Harry goes through the veil intact. The
big difference for Harry is that his conciousness is not subject to
the usual effects of death because it is shielded by Voldemort, and he
retains his anchor to life which is hidden within the conciousness. 

I am not sure how that will work plotwise, maybe it will have to do
with the two-way mirror. 

 
Ceridwen:
It's interesting to think that all of Harry's parental figures who
have been taken from him, supposedly to force him into the lone
hero's journey, would be there at the end, aiding him as if they were
still part of the living, right where they would have been if they
had not died. Instead of removing them, if this is going to be the
scenario, JKR has placed them at the optimum place to give Harry the
support he needs to defeat LV altogether, to get the deepest wish of
his heart (to see his loved ones), and to find the strength to carry
on without them, or to enter into their world beyond the veil.

Valky:
I only wrote it into the scenario above where Sirius dies in pain to
save Harry, but I think that whatever happens Harry (and Sirius) if
they walk back out of the veil will do it in agony. 
Again I refer to an underworld myth where Orpheus was told he could
lead his wife out of Hades but he was not to look back on her or he
would be stuck their for ever. It was agony for him as he had not seen
his wife in many years and had missed her so much that he couldn't
bear not to look at her. He did look back and was trapped in Hades
forever. If Harry returns through the veil it will be the same for him
in that it will hurt very much to leave.


"Szehms":
I think possesion of Harry is LV's last alternative, here is where
the power of love that Harry possess will determine the fate of LV.

Harry will make the decision to go beyond the veil sacrificing his
life to kill LV.

Valky:
I think that Harry will have to possess Voldemort to do this. If he is
merely possessed by Voldemort, Harry will have no control over his own
body, and I am sure Voldemort will not try to possess Harry again
without protecting himself or trying some measure to avoid what
happened in the MOM in OOtP. 


"Szehms":
However, I do not think Harry will die.
<snip>

How this can happen, I cannot say, I do think that like Lily's
sacrifice, Harry's sacrifice may envoke ancient magic powerful
enough to save him, can love save his life again?

Valky:
By going through the veil in Voldemorts body I am sure Harry will be
making a genuine sacrifice, after all, he only knows that you cannot
come back through the veil. If Harry does this and survives he has no
way of knowing beforehand that he isn't sacrificing his own life. I
can rationalise that in this way Harry's Love and sacrifice *does*
save him.


"Szehms":
I have wondered if Harry could attempt to go beyond the veil, yet
be pulled back by another, Harry dangling half in the mortal
world, half in the underworld. Maybe the souls of the underworld
can carry LV into death and push Harry back to the mortal world?
<snip>

In the scenario where Harry is held back from fully entering the
veil, Harry would not be alone at the MOM; if this was the case LV
could atttempt to possess Ron or Hermione as he possessed Harry in
front of DD in OOTP, teasing Harry, daring him to battle while in
possession of
his closest friends.

Valky:
I have imagined a similar scenario to your's which involves Voldemort
possessing Ginny, Voldemort then attacks Harry with Ginny's body
knowing that Harry will *not* kill Ginny to get to him. Harry somehow
ends up possessing Nagini knowing that Voldemort will not destroy his
Horcrux to get to Harry. 

However this puts Ginny in some very deep water, Voldemort could just
kill her, and I haven't thought of a way to get her out of the
situation yet. OTOH I like Harry possessing Voldemort better than I
like Harry possessing Nagini, so an alternative scenario using
Parseltongue etc would be preferable anyway. 


"Szehms":
At this point Harry could bargain with LV, "take me" instead, then
because he is uniquely qualified to resist being controlled by LV
(as he resisted the imperius curse in GOF) he manages to keep his
wits about him long enough to go through the veil, or tempt a
death eater or member of the Order (as DD pleaded with Snape to
kill him for the greater good) to kill him for the good of the
wizarding world.

Valky:
I don't think Harry will try it, I am pretty sure he won't believe
Voldemort will spare his friends if he pleads. This is why I am also
sure that Nagini will have to be there, knowing how much LV fears
death I think his last Horcrux would be the best leverage for
negotiations. :D




bboymn:
Perhaps, Sirius is trapped by his /special circumstances/ behind the
Veil. It's a stretch, but perhaps as a single body or a single spirit,
he can not cross the boundary between the living and the dead. That
is, he can't cross back over to the land of the living as a single
body/spirit. 

Valky:
I do think it is possible that he is trapped there in a sense. Still
able to live, but not able to return. Though I agree the single
body/spirit explanation is a stretch.

bboymn:
So, the solution is for Sirius to touch Voldemort. <snip>by moving to
Sirius's body with no 'in-between' time, he remains safe. With Harry
in control and his own body protected,
Harry marches Sirius's body out from behind the Veil. <snip> Although,
it is possible to speculate that Sirius's body will drop dead when
Harry exists .... a detail .... I can live with.

Valky:
I, too, think whether Sirius lives or dies it will be a great moment
either way. OTOH I think you also hit the nail on the head with the
word *control* here. I see this as the crux of the matter because I
think it will be this that Harry will retain when he goes through the
veil, unbodily, while others who go through bodily lose it. Because
Harry's 'will' survives as he passes through the veil unbodily, he
will have the power to return and take Sirius with him.

In a way isn't this foreshadowed by Harry dragging Cedric back via the
Portkey in GOF?

bboymn:
Now to the real problem. This is all a great potential ending for the
story. The question is will/has JKR thought of it? 

Valky:
Well I really hope so. Its my favourite so far. This and no less than
this JKR please! <g>

 
> Carol responds:
> But where does the locked room come in? Surely it should fit into 
> the picture somewhere? And what about Snape, who is supposed to have 
> a crucial role to play in Book 7?
> 


Valky:
I don't know how we could fit the room of Love into this hypothesis
and I really don't think we should try too hard. It will probably come
into play earlier in the book. FWIW, if you at all buy the Labours of
Hercules theory, before Hercules goes to the Underworld he visits
Eleusis to be initiated in the lesser mysteries in preparation for his
journey. The lesser mysteries were a ritual in honour of Persephone
and there is less known about the lesser mysteries than there is about
the greater mysteries. However we do know the greater mysteries are in
honour of Demeter who also travelled to the underworld and that they
are sometimes interpreted as the ritual of going through the veil of
death.

Valky
Working on a response to Carol's post about how possession works, but
my theory is based on calculus and I know how much Carol loves that! <g>