Beyond the Veil or not/ Nutcase WAS Re: Why does Kreacher have to obey Harry?

[lucianam73]

No: HPFGUIDX 142755

> 
> > > Carol notes:
> > > > I think the fact that Kreacher has to do what Harry orders
> > > > indicates not only that Sirius's will is valid but that he
> > > > is truly dead.
> > > 
> 
> > Lucianam:
> > (snipped)
> > Just to stick to details, I don't think Kreacher obeying 
> > Harry's orders proves Harry is his rightful master. It doesn't 
> > prove Sirius is  dead, either.
> > 
(edited)

> > If Sirius is alive and for some reason he wants people to think
> > he is dead, all he has to do is, similarly, tell Kreacher to 
> > follow Harry's orders. ...
> 
> 
> bboyminn:
> (snipped) 
> 
> So, Kreacher obeying Harry is valid because, Sirius has left the
> mortal realm. In other words, he is dead by all earthly 
definitions,
> but we don't know what happens on the other side of the Veil. We 
don't
> know what rules apply there, and that opens the possibility for
> Sirius's return back to the earthly realm.
> > 


Lucianam:

I took ages to comment but I really wanted to answer your post, 
Steve. 
Well, when I answered Carol's post I was considering the possibility 
of Sirius being really alive. By which I mean, out of the Veil, back 
in the material world, assuming he's already escaped from the 
spiritual world. I didn't think of the possibility of Sirius 
communicating with Kreacher while still trapped beyond the veil - 
house elves are mortal beings (beheaded!) and there's no reason to 
think they'd be any better than wizards at talking to spirits.

I didn't elaborate on my post though. Maybe I should try, as the 
subject of Sirius-Veil-Coming Back or not? is so interesting, but I 
don't have anyhting up my sleeves really. My point is, I don't 
believe Kreacher obeying Harry proves Sirius is dead, because IF 
Sirius is alive (not beyond the veil anymore, but here, both his 
body and soul) he could be instructing Kreacher to obey Harry if he 
didn't want people to know he was back.

If JKR decides to write that - or better, if she has written that, I 
don't see why she couldn't have been it exactly like that. I think 
it would relate to the charade Dobby played on Harry in CoS, 
pratically denying the person who'd opened the Chamber was Voldemort.

> bboyminn also wrote:
(snipped)
> Also, keep in mind that Harry using Sirius's body in order to 
return
> from behind the Veil and into the earthly realm, only means that
> Sirius's body will return with Harry inside. Once back, after Harry
> abondons Sirius's body, Sirius could just as easily drop dead as 
not.
> So the return of Sirius doesn't necessarily mean his return to 
life,
> only his bodily return to the earthly realm.
> 

Lucianam:

Ah, the possession thread!! I read it, it's very very interesting. I 
don't know if I like it though, because as you might have noticed 
I'm a HUGE Sirius fan and I'd be disappointed all over again if he'd 
come back only to drop dead. 
I'm afraid of this theory, because it has foreshadowing in the end 
of OotP. Remember, Harry kept trying to find a way out of the 
reality of Sirius's death, only to be disappointed over and over. It 
was like watching Sirius die again and again, with the mirror thing, 
then Nick. 

In my opinion, it's almost an 100% chance that Sirius is dead or 
will be confirmed as dead in B7. It is a thing of wonder I still 
manage to convince myself there's a tiny chance and remain aboard 
SAD DENIAL.

For me, the reason the odds of Permanently Dead or Even More Dead in 
Book Seven Sirius are so huge is plot-wise. Harry must suffer 
personal loss, so it's either Ron, Hermione or Sirius who bites the 
dust. Hagrid and Dumbledore are in a different intimacy level, I 
guess, so I don't count them here. If JKR doesn't have (or lack, 
depends on your point of view) the heart to kill the children it's 
the adult - Sirius - who snuffs it, and there you are.

The only thing that I think REALLY doesn't fit in Permanently Dead 
or Even More Dead in Book Seven Sirius is JKR's reaction to the Book 
5 death. Why, oh why would she run down the stairs crying over 
Sirius? I have the hardest time believing she was talking about him, 
considering the very detached way she speaks about Sirius in her 
site and interviews. Of course she could have been thinking about 
Harry's suffering, or she might have had a moment of compassion (as 
she killed him!) or she was talking about someone else, about a 
character she likes very much. Since I don't worry much about 
looking like a nut I'd risk Hermione.

Lucianam