CHAPDISC: HBP4, Horace Slughorn

[Ceridwen]

No: HPFGUIDX 143350

Alla:
> 
> CHAPTER DISCUSSIONS: Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince, 
Chapter 
> 4,Horace Slughorn.

Ceridwen:
Alla, wonderful recap of the chapter!  Thanks!

> QUESTIONS.
> 
> 1. Consider the following quote from this chapter:
> Dumbledore: "However, I do not think you need worry about being 
> attacked tonight."
> Harry: "Why not, sir?"
> "You are with me," said Dumbledore simply.   
>  Now look at this quote in chapter 26,"The Cave:"
>  "I am not worried Harry," said Dumbledore, his voice a little 
> stronger despite the freezing water. "I am with you." 

Ceridwen:
I agree with everyone else who thought the quote from chapter 26 was 
an echo, and a symbolic passing of the mantle.  Apparently, in 
Dumbledore's opinion, Harry has learned enough that he is able to be 
the strong wizard of the pair at this point.  It's also necessity 
that he grow to be that strong wizard, as DD is debilitated by the 
potion and its ordeal.  He is in bad shape, and in need of healing.  
I think it also indicates that Harry passed some sort of test in the 
cave to Dumbledore's satisfaction.  It was Harry using his blood to 
open the secret door instead of Dumbledore as it had been when they 
went in, and Harry supporting Dumbledore (literally) when Dumbledore 
had been supporting Harry (figuratively) through the entire book.  In 
chapter four, Harry doesn't need to exert himself, he's leaning on 
Dumbledore, being transported by him, and standing at his side as an 
apprentice.  In ch. 26, Harry exerts himself so DD doesn't have to, 
and stands at Dumbledore's side as a strong right arm.  The words 
echoing from the beginning of the book only serve to spotlight the 
transition.

Alla:
> Do you see any symbolic connection between these two quotes?
> 
> 2. When Albus says, "Lord Voldemort has finally realized the 
> dangerous access to his thoughts and feelings you have been 
> enjoying," does he mean that in OOP Voldemort had no idea that 
Harry 
> had access to his thoughts and feelings? Wasn't it necessary for 
> Voldemort to know that Harry would receive the vision of Sirius in 
> order for his plan to lure Harry to MoM to be successful? In other 
> words, I thought that Voldemort was aware of the connection during 
> OOP. Are we supposed to think that he was not? How does Dumbledore 
> know that Voldemort is now employing Occlumency against Harry?

Ceridwen:
Someone else quoted the passage from the Occlumency lessons, so I 
can't add to that.  But I believe Dumbledore is implying that, after 
the disaster at the Ministry, when LV attempted to use the connection 
to his advantage and had some of his DEs captured and taken off to 
Azkaban, he re-thought that strategy and decided it was best for his 
plans to simply shut the connection down.

Alla:
> 3. Horace Slughorn tells Dumbledore that he did not have time to 
set 
> the Dark Mark over the House. "The Dark Mark," he muttered. "Knew 
> there was something 
 ah well. Wouldn't have had time anyway" 
> I realize that I am missing something obvious here, but it bugs me 
> nevertheless. Can anybody set the Dark Mark? Anybody who has no 
> connections with Death Eaters at all? I am guessing that since 
> Winky  was accused of doing so in GoF, the answer is probably yes, 
> but the suggestion  that a house elf had done it was met with such 
> disbelief that maybe not  anybody could do it? What do you think?

Ceridwen:
I thought the disbelief came from the idea of an elf being educated 
enough to use a wand.

I think the Dark Mark would necessarily be simple enough for witches 
and wizards with a wide range of competency to cast the thing, since 
I get the impression that LV isn't always around when it needs to be 
set.  I would imagine that it's based on something they learned how 
to do while at Hogwarts, a signalling spell perhaps.  The 
particulars, skull head, twining snake, could be learned from other 
DEs, or figured out on their own, if the witch or wizard had trouble 
with the fine points of the spell.  I also imagine that Slughorn is 
more than competent enough to be able to cast a Dark Mark, or any 
other pattern he chose.  While he isn't quite DD's age, he can be 
said to be his contemporary.

Alla:
> 4. If Horace had been "out of touch with everybody for a year," how 
> does Dumbledore know that he is now hiding in charming village of 
> Budleigh Babberton?

Ceridwen:
I think Dumbledore was keeping an eye on Slughorn.  I think he must 
have decided this when he saw that the diary was a horcrux back in 
Harry's year two.  As a friend and contemporary, fellow teachers as 
they once were together, he might have kept up a correspondence in 
some way or another as well, while the former Slug Club members 
didn't have that 'in'.  But, I do think Dumbledore purposely kept 
tabs on Slughorn's movements after realizing about the diary, because 
he knew that, sooner or later, LV would remember Slughorn and could 
go after him.

(I also think that Spinner's End is in Budleigh Babberton, though 
it's pretty well been proven that BB isn't anywhere near the mill 
towns of the north, just my own idea that Snape was keeping an eye on 
Slughorn for DD, and possibly for LV as well)

Alla:
> 5. When I was preparing the questions for this chapter discussion, 
I 
> could not shake the feeling that I am having Mark Evans de ja vu. 
> Why? Because I started seeing symbolism where JKR probably had no 
> intention to write anything symbolic. Nevertheless, when Albus asks 
> Slughorn whether he needs his assistance in cleaning up and 
Slughorn 
> answers positively, I for some reason saw the possible 
foreshadowing 
> of Gryffindor and Slytherin cooperation. Am I seeing things? 
>  "They stood back to back, the tall thin wizard and the short round 
> one, and waved 
> their wands in one identical sweeping motion."

Ceridwen:
I like that take on it.  Thinking about it, I think that what we're 
seeing in this chapter is the echo of how things were before LV's 
rise, and the way they could be again.  Dumbledore and Slughorn 
represent cooperation in the past, if they represent anything at all 
here, but the past can hold out hope for the future.

Alla:
> 6. Slughorn claims that he spilled dragon blood on the walls, when 
> he was preparing his little charade. He also says that it may still 
> be reusable. How do you think it could be reusable after already 
> being spilled? Dragon blood keeps showing up in the series. Do you 
> think it may play important role in the ending? Do you think it 
> already played the important role in the beginning, but we may not 
> know about it yet?
> What do you think?

Ceridwen:
Someone else mentioned that it might not be good for potions use now, 
but it can still be used for the sort of charade for which Slughorn 
used it.  Even dusty old blood can be smeared again.  Slughorn at 
that point is not planning on coming to Hogwarts, at least that's 
what he says, and that's how it seems until he has his change of 
heart.  If he's going to move on, he'll need more blood for yet 
another 'attack' scene.

I don't know if dragon's blood has any importance other than being 
something that Muggles definitely don't use, seperating the Magical 
world by this device.  But, as everyone keeps saying, we don't know 
the twelve uses of dragon's blood.  It could be some sort of sealer 
on ancient spells, like Lily's 'blood magic' (another reference to 
blood, though not dragon's blood).  I think we'll just have to wait 
and see, hard as it is.


> 7. If Horace has been "out of touch with everybody for a year", how 
> does he know about Dumbledore's injury? Is there any significance 
> that he describes the reason for the injury basically the same way 
> Snape describes it to Bella in "Spinner's end"?
> 
> Horace's words are, "Reactions not what they were, I see." 
> 
> Snape, in the relevant part of conversation, says basically the 
same 
> thing: "He has since sustained a serious injury because his 
> reactions are slower than they once were." – p.31. (US.ed).

Ceridwen:
He can see the injury.  Harry notices it right off, and Slughorn is 
no less observant than Harry.  Dumbledore makes no secret of it, 
waving his hands around in the scene as if nothing's wrong.  Slughorn 
asks if Dumbledore's slowing down, because it would be unusual for 
Dumbledore to sustain such an injury ordinarily.  Slughorn has 
already retired, he's accustomed to the complaints of advancing age, 
and just thinks Dumbledore's finally succumbing, I think.  It's a 
reasonable assumption to make at Dumbledore's age, so of course 
Slughorn, Snape and Dumbledore all use it.  It seems to make sense.

Alla:
> 8. Would you agree that Slughorn seems to be *too* unconcerned 
about 
> Dumbledore's injury? If you disagree, why?

Ceridwen:
Dumbledore seems to be managing just fine with the injury, and he 
doesn't follow through with Slughorn's initial lead on the subject.  
So, it's a closed subject to Dumbledore.  As a mannerly gentleman of 
a different era, Slughorn doesn't press, at least not in front of 
Harry.

Alla:
> 9. What was your very first impression of Horace Slughorn?  I mean, 
> particularly, if it's possible for you to recall before you read 
> anything about him on the HPFGU.

Ceridwen:
I thought he was a bit old-fashioned.  Innocent, in the way that 
people were when they thought they were the center of the universe 
and saw nothing wrong with that.  If he were a Muggle, I would have 
expected him to go on fondly about Empire, instead of collecting the 
Black brothers and Lily's skill though she's a Muggle-born.  He was 
almost like many of the many old ladies I knew as a child, so I liked 
him well enough, respectfully keeping my distance, and trying not to 
smell lavender in the room.  *g*

Alla:
> 10. We know that Harry does not ask questions about his parents 
even 
> in those rare situations when he has the chance to do so. Here 
Harry 
> meets the man who taught his mother, who seems to like his mother 
> very much and Harry is still not asking him any questions about 
> Lily. What do you think about it?

Ceridwen:
I agree with everyone who said Harry doesn't know Slughorn yet.  
Also, he did make that comment about her being good despite being a 
Muggle-born, so Harry may not want to hear such qualifying while 
hearing about his mother.  I notice Slughorn doesn't repeat that 
mistake later in the book when he talks about Lily.

Carol:
> Does anyone besides me think that the overstuffed chair
> into which Dumbledore poked his wand showed signs of magical
> concealment? If not, how would he know that Horace had transfigured
> himself into *that* particular chair? And if so, is this little
> incident a foreshadowing of the magical concealment motif (the ring
> and the locket) later in the book?

Ceridwen:
I thought at first that it was Dumbledore's ability to pick up on 
magical residue.  Then, I thought that maybe this is the usual sort 
of thing for Slughorn to transform into.  He and Dumbledore have 
known each other for many years and Dumbledore would know his 
habits.  It could go either way for me at this point.  If Slughorn 
pulls the same scenario in book 7 for whatever reason (and maybe even 
transforms Harry or another DA member into a Chippendale hutch? 
wouldn't that be a hoot?), then it's probably just his usual schtick.

Ceridwen.