The cave potion and soul pieces (Re: OFH! Snape again )

[Jen Reese]

No: HPFGUIDX 140992

(Replies to Valky and Saraquel here)

> Valky:
> For one, there is no categorical evidence of that 1/7th of soul
> being destroyed. In fact, the text literally says it was an
> *exchange*, that it was destroyed is only figuratively implied.
> Without assumptions of what DD 'figuratively' means by 'exchange',
> there is no reason at all to think it was destroyed. If we take it
> perfectly literally as given then Dumbledore is with certainty
> saying that he gave his hand, and got Voldemorts soul given back
> to him in return.

Jen: See, I read that a different way: DD gave up his wand hand, a 
very crucial part of being a wizard, to destroy the soul piece. One 
death in exchange for one death. If his wand hand were merely 
injured, then the soul piece would only be injured, too. But the 
hand is dead, so the soul piece is dead. 

> > Jen: OK, that moment alone might be worth your theory being true!
> > Except Snape passed up the perfect opportunity to lay his guilt
> > trip on Harry when H. screamed for him to 'kill me, like you did
> > him, coward!' (paraphrased).
 
> Valky:
> Aha! but read again Jen, they aren't yelling about Dumbledore
> Harry is not accusing him of killing Dumbledore, he's accusing him
> of killing James.

Jen: Pippin mentioned that intepretaion, so I have read and re-read 
that passage. I do see Snape is referring to James previous to 
the "kill me like you did him" quote by Harry. The ambiguous part to 
me is Snape has no idea Harry knows he was the eavesdropper. 
Dumbledore never told Snape's story to anyone. Snape doesn't know a 
mere few hours before Harry heard Trelawney spill the beans. It's 
possible Dumbledore warned Snape that Harry found out the truth in 
the five minutes it took Harry to get his cloak, but we aren't privy 
to that. It seems to me even if Harry is referring to James, Snape 
would automatically think of the AK cast at Dumbledore b/c that's 
the person he 'killed' so recently and Harry was there to see it 
(which Snape must have known when he saw the two brooms and no 
Harry, or because DD told him he was taking Harry to the cave).

Jen:
> > Possession would explain how Voldemort was able to keep the
> > potion-drinker "alive long enough to find out how they managed
> > to penetrate so far through his defenses, and most importantly
> > of all, why they were so intent upon emptying the basin." (chap.
> > 26, p. 569, Scholastic)
 
> Valky:
> Sorry, Jen, I don't understand how it explains that.

Jen: What I meant is if the potion has some type of essence of 
Voldemort in it that can possess the person drinking it, Voldemort 
would then be able to see into the person's thoughts and feelings to 
figure out why the person is in the cave, how he found it in the 
first place, and why the person is emptying the basin. After 
Voldemort has accessed the information he needs, he leaves the body 
and the person dies, ala Quirrell, or a stronger wizard would still 
be alive but very weak. Some aspect of the potion would kick in to 
make the drinker crave water and drink from the lake. That would be 
the poison and would also line up with Dumbledore's idea the potion 
isn't meant to 'kill immediately' because it doesn't actually do the 
killing, the water does.

> Saraquel:
> That the soul-part would possess anyone who tried to destroy it is 
> the perfect defence,IMO and soooo Voldemort.
> 
> That if the Ring HSP (horcrux soul part)had already posessed DD, 
> then Snape would know that and DD's pleading on the tower makes 
> complete sense, "I'm possessed by the horcrux we went after 
> tonight, you must kill me in this situation."  Snape would have
> known that DD was going after a horcrux IMO, as he would have
> forewarned Snape to be ready.

Jen: It would definitely have to be a property of the potion since 
the real Horcrux wasn't in the basin. How that could happen, well, 
one of those super potion-makers will explain it to us!

Valky:
> I definitely agree with tht connection, but then what about
> the : "Its all my fault.. I did wrong.." stuff? It doesn't really
> seem like what someone would say when being possessed like Harry
> in the MOM, nor like anything Voldemort would say.

Saraquel:
> Although it accounts beautifully for some of what DD says, it 
> doesn't really account for the other stuff.  Surely this is not a 
> remorseful young Tom Riddle whilst he was being punished for
> taking the kids into the cave?  Maybe the young Tom Riddle did
> have some  sort of a conscience.

Jen: Well, the potion wouldn't be like a full-strength Voldemort 
right away, like when he possessed Harry in the MOM, but would gain 
in strength as more potion is drunk. In the beginning DD appears to 
be in pain, and most of his words are directed at Harry, saying he 
doesn't want any more of the potion and wants the pain to stop--
"don't make me, want to stop" and the like. As the potion gets 
stronger, I imagined Voldemort torturing Dumbledore with thoughts 
that would coincide with his worst fears--hurting students at 
Hogwarts, torturing Order members and the like (sort of like showing 
Harry Sirius being tortured at the DOM). When the potion is almost 
gone, at full strength inside Dumbledore, that's when it was an echo 
of Harry at the DOM and the pain is beyond imagining, "KILL ME!" 
Then he passes out as the essence of Voldemort leaves his body, ala 
Quirrell. 

A weaker wizard might be dead as Voldemort leaves his body, but 
since Voldemort expects only a strong wizard would make it that far, 
he has the poison water as a back-up, knowing the potion will leave 
someone feeling incredibly thirsty and be unable to drink anything 
but the lake water. Most likely DD took an antidote prior to the 
trip which slows the poison's effects.

It's convoluted, I know, speculative. 

Valky:
> I have been mulling over the thought that somehow Snape and
> Dumbledore managed to stop the possession and life drain, but not
> indefinitely, hence DD preparing for his death. It would makes
> sense that the entry point of the curse would reflect the madness
> within, and I think this is in the nature of Voldemorts curses
> deliberately. 

Jen: So this is where the soul piece would still be inside 
Dumbledore? Maybe I'm thinking too much about the diary, but it 
seems like if the ring is destroyed, the soul piece would be too. 
Maybe it did enter Dumbeldore and that's what caused him to be near-
death, but then I do think the evil spirit/soul was cast out somehow 
by Snape and when it was destroyed, as it left DD's body, it 
withered his wand hand in the process. 

I guess my reluctance to think the soul piece is inside DD is 
feeling undecided about DD dying throughout HBP. I really don't see 
signs he's weakening before the potion. If anything he seems more 
energetic. Harry never sees flashes of anyone behind Dumbledore's 
eyes like DD saw in Harry's eyes when Voldemort was in there. So I'm 
still up in the air on this one.

Jen