Fire Air and Water WAS Re: Snape as the dark young man -Trelawney's Cards

[M.Clifford]

No: HPFGUIDX 142110


> AyanEva:
> I'm not sure if I should change the subject header or not... meh. 
> I'll leave it.

Valky:
mmm... I had better change it though, I am about to skew this thread
way off Trelawney in places.

> AyanEva:
> I'm never certain that I've spelled legilimency properly<---still 
> not sure

Valky:
I can assure you, that's right AyanEva. The noun for the art itself is
spelled with the 'c' and the noun for the artist, legilimens, is
spelled with the 's', a bit posh french, really, isn't it? I assume
JKR chose to design it this way to punctuate the mystique of this
obscure branch of magic. IMO it speaks to it being a classy, elegant
sort of magic and I think that is the deliberate subtle implication of
the word's design. 
I could probably do a whole post on JKR's wordsmithing and underlying
allusions in the design of her spellwords, but I'll save that for
another day. 


> > 
> > Valky:
> <snip>
>  It is Dumbledore that points
> > us to this as Harry's love power so that is why I consider that a
> > possibility. In this case I think that perhaps Snape having been
> > exposed to this power in Harry's fifth year, has learned to wield 
> > part of it in certain spells or has simply learned that you don't 
> > need eye contact to read Harry because of it.
> >
> 
> AyanEva:
> Do you mean that Snape's "feeding," for lack of a better word, off 
> of Harry in order to manipulate Harry's love power for casting 
> spells?

Valky:
Well yes, and no. Yes because I think Snape is definitely curious
about the power that Harry can wield in the sense that he hasn't
encountered it before, recognises that it has ultimate? potential from
a very objective viewpoint, and is the lifelong learning type of
person who is *always* looking for a new levels to explore in magic. 
And No because I don't think the character of Snape is intended to
fulfill any role of draining something from someone, that would be
Voldemort's territory, I would classify Snape far more passively than
that. So in that sense he is not feeding in a literal way but rather
observing, very keenly. I think Snape gets keen to the point where he
wants to observe it for long periods of time and that is why he gives
Harry a drawer full of reminders of Sirius Black to go through weekend
after weekend. 


> Valky:
> > The second theory <snip> Harry and Snape are
> > now 'mindlocked' for want of a better word. 
> 
> AyanEva:
> <snip> it's pretty clear that Snape 
> *knows* Harry's next move before Harry makes it and Snape's NOT 
> making eye contact. How can he? He's running and dueling; he hardly 
> has time for a staring contest. That would be how Snape totally 
> whomps Harry in that particular duel. I mean, we know Harry can cast 
> a shield charm that knocks people into desks, he's dueled Lord 
> Voldemort and got off a few close shots, dueled Death Eaters in the 
> DOM, but Snape just swats him down like an irritating fly. When I 
> was reading, I remember being suprised at how poorly the duel went 
> on Harry's end. I expected a bit of a battle.

Valky:
I agree, its fairly clear that Harry has top notch power and fantastic
reflexes, hence he can draw his wand on Voldemort fast enough to lock
them in Priori Incantatem and he can hold on to a thread of energy
with the power to blast him into outer space, he can react fast enough
to even a silent spell from Snape and knock him flying over desks. But
Harry does not have anything when it comes to attacking in anger, he
gives away his moves, he does most of the damage to himself rather
than the person he's attacking, and he loses focus and gets attacked
from behind when we know he is capable of sensing rear attack quite
often. 

IMO the mindlock theory makes sense in terms of Harry's lack of focus,
but otherwise the strongest theory here is his loud aura
transmissions. Perhaps even getting louder when he chases Snape
because of his emotions there. OTOH it is this scene that most
strongly pushes me to blend the three theories into a unified one,
where Harry's loud aura is a result of tapping into his power in an
uncontrolled way, his sympathies crossed with his determination to
never forgive Snape are causing fuzziness in it around Snape which has
them mindlocked in a sense but only through Harry's own intentions,
and finally that there was a focussed use of Harry's love power in the
Occlumency lessons which demonstrates the correct control of it :

 "A hundred Dementors were swooping towards Harry across the lake in
the grounds... he screwed up his face in concentration... they were
coming closer... he could see the dark holes beneath their hoods.. yet
he could also see Snape standing in front of him, his eyes fixed on
Harry's face, muttering under his breath... and somehow, Snape was
growing clearer, and the Dementors were growing fainter...
Harry raised his own wand.
Protego!
Snape staggered- "
Ch 26 OOtP Seen and Unforseen pg 521 Bloomsbury

Here we see the moment Harry breaks Snapes mind wide open, afterwards
Snape is white in the face and panting, clearly effected by something
extremely powerful from Harry. In the passage above notice that Harrys
thoughts do not reflect that he is concious of the legilimency, it
doesn't reflect an attempt by Harry to push Snape out of his mind at
all. It does instead seem to reflect Harry concentrating on protecting
Sirius like he did at the lake in POA. It reflects IMO Harry's love
for Sirius and almost nothing more. From start to finish, Harry is in
the memory of the Dementors coming accross the lake, in that POA scene
Harry concentrates hard on his happiness about finding Sirius and
going to live with Sirius, in OOtP he remembers concentrating, and the
next we know he sees Snape clearly and casts protego with dramatic
effects.

Now note these specific similarities:
Harry in POA 'I'm going to live with Sirius'
Harry in Occlumency remembers the above scene.
Harry in the Atrium of the MOM 'I'll be with Sirius again'

Against the Dementors being with Sirius was weak. But against
Voldemort, against his two greatest powers Legilimency and Possession
'being with Sirius' is pure gold.

As I said before, it is Dumbledore than points out to us *this* is
Harry's power of Love. Finding it here in Occlumency with Snape, well,
it's a rough diamond, but thats still good right? :D
 

 
> AyanEva:
> Ooh! Ooh! Ooh! Just thought of something else. Many of us have been
> thinking that Snape's going to help Harry somehow or another in Book
> 7, <snip> Snape could give him
> messages in the form of dreams... <snip> Then again, Snape could 
> just use his Patronus
> that we keep getting hints about. But the dream idea is more fun.

Valky:
I think Snape will use his patronus. I have a specific theory about
that too. I think you're right that Harry won't be trusting his dreams
again, but OTOH it would be an interesting irony if Harry does get
some sort of assistance from Snape through dreams that he ignores
because of his experiences in OOtP. 

AyanEva: 
> I'm going to assume that if Harry's projecting a strong aura, the
> point at which he began to do so is in the DOM battle when he pushes
> Voldie out. I can't think that it would've been prior during the
> Occlumency lessons, because we would've seen from hint from Snape, I
> think. This makes me want to go back and examine the end of OOTP 
> where Harry and Draco are fighting, Snape comes up and demands to 
> know what Harry's doing; Harry back-talks Snape and feels like he 
> (Harry) wants to kill him (Snape). Snape just gives Harry an odd 
> kind of thoughtful look, rather than getting angry and indignant 
> like I fully expected him too. I can imagine Snape thinking, "What 
> the- ? That wasn't me! I can hear his thoughts! Holy crap!" and 
> completely forgetting to get mad at Harry's audible and mental 
> comments because he's so sidetracked by this revelation.

Valky:
Oh I'm buying it AyanEva! Good catch there. My personal theory was
that Snape got an inside tip from one of the portraits, like Phineas
perhaps, that Harry was possessed by Voldemort in the MOM and that
Dumbledore had said it was thinking of Sirius that had saved him from
it. That way it was an easy two and two together for Snape who had
seen what Harry was capable of when he was thinking of Sirius, in
Occlumency. 

However, I never liked my off-page theory all that much so I am really
glad you brought this one up, it shows how Snape could have been
alerted to this power growing in Harry without any contrivance needed
from outside of the text. Thanks and I agree. 


<snip some things bceause my post is getting really long>
 
> > Valky:
> > <snip>
>  Snape is Water/Air
> > (Slytherin/Ravenclaw) to save time I'll just paste something from
> this> site: http://www.astrology-numerology.com/elements.html
> >  on the Water/Air combination -
> > <snip>
> > A little bit Snapeish isn't it? 
> >
> 
> AyanEva:
> It's very Snapish. Which leads me to my next inquiry, and this ties
> into the Intellect versus Raw Power question that I had above. I 
> think Harry is Fire/Water. 

Valky:
I am in absolute agreement with you there. Fire/Water are the most
passionate people and the ones with the most raw power. Rawness is
really at the centre of a Fire/water person due to the inner conflict
of these opposing elements. When the fire gets overwhelming in the
balance we get steam from this person, because water has no defence
against fire, it is wholly affected by its heat, an overbalance of
fire in the fire water person can leave them feeling empty and parched
dry. This is like Harry who blows steam from his ears and often gets
feelings of emptiness. Likewise Fire has no defence against an
overbalance of water in this person so when the water gets too weighty
in the nature the fire can be all but extinguished, so sometimes this
person feels defeated preemptively, which is also like Harry. In good
balance the Fire/water person can change tack from power to persuasion
on a dime, so to speak. This is one characteristic we are finding out
about Harry only recently. The Fire/Water person can run down any
obstacle before them as they have unstoppable will and resources for
the job. They do however run themselves down quicker than most due to
the constantly active nature of these two elements and are often said
to be destined for glory rather than longevity, this is very Harry.



AyanEva:
> I can't find anything on what happens when you
> put Fire/Water with Air/Water... Wah. <snip>
> What I'd like to know is if
> the elemental signs of the two will give us any insight on how
> feasible it is for them to work together and what sorts of things each
> person would bring to the table, should they end up working together
> at some point (indirectly or otherwise), that is.

Valky:
Well the first thing you notice is what they have in common. This is
water in Snape and Harrys case. Water is associated with the moon and
therefore with the mother. Here we have good signs for the
relationships with mothers for both boys, if JKR is placing any weight
on these elemental relationships in plotting (and I really do think
that is the case) then Snape probably had a good relationship with his
mother, but more to the point his relationship with his mother is a
*key* to many things in his life as his wateryness would indicate that
she had a strong influence on him. 
We know without doubt the size of Lily's influence on Harry's life and
the constancy of her prescence in his life even after her death, so
there is a good strong reason to believe that the water influence in
Harry is written into the plot.

Then we look to see what the two have in contrast with each other.
First of these is Snapes water is in oppositin with Harry's fire, now
even though Harry has a water element of his own Snape's additional
water still counts. The simplest thing that can be gleaned from that
is that Snapes emotional side can affect Harry negatively and even
make him feel defeated, and we know this is true. On the flipside
Harrys energy, his mere prescence, which is lively and positive, can
cause Snape to overheat to boiling point, again we know this is true.
(As it unfolds the elemental relationships seem very pertinent don't
they?) 

Then we contrast the Fire in Harry with the Air in Snape. From this we
can see a strong connection between them which involves Snape
providing fuel for Harry's fires. These signs are complimentary in the
Snape ---> Harry configuration. This can easily be construed into a
scenario of Snape giving aid to Harry. But it can also show how Snape
can affect Harry by increasing his fire element. Snape can 'get to'
Harry, and Harry will react - we see this in the way Harry always
suspects Snape of wrongdoing and in the way Snape can really make
Harry furious sometimes.  

In the Harry --> Snape configuration it shows that Harry is capable of
reducing Snape's air element which leaves him very watery and
emotional, we see this in POA when Snape loses his cool and is sure
Harry is responsible for his lost Order of Merlin.

All in all it makes a lot of sense in the way these two characters
have interacted so far. These things are all results of one
unbalancing the other. But if each are in balance, which could happen
and I'll show you how, the interaction would be different.

One good way to balance elements is to show a complimentary cycle
between them. the cycle between Fire/Water and Air/Water runs like
this. The Air lifts the fire (Snape-->Harry), the fire raises steam
from the first water(Harry-->Harry), the second water cools the steam
(Harry ---> Snape), and some air particles escape back to balance the
air (Snape --> Snape). Harry and Snape's resolution will probably
follow this cycle.


Valky