Draco's culpability (Was: My doubts about Snape being Evil)

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 139458

> >>a_svirn:
> For one thing, the *snippet* of my original post you quoted cannot 
> even remotely be called a definition.  (Definition followed right 
> after where you snipped.) Nor do I remember any such *definitions* 
> in the books.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Ah.  Well, that's why I nutshelled the definition back to you, 
because I wanted to make sure I was reading your definition 
correctly.  And I snipped because that's what we're encouraged to 
do.  I wasn't trying to twist your words or anything and I apologize 
if that's what it looked like I was doing.

I will say that I think the definition of a "Death Eater" has 
evolved over the series.

> >>a_svirn:
> Harry first learns about DE in the World Cap aftermath where they 
> are termed (by Bill) as "followers and supporters of Lord 
> Voldemort". Vague and noncommiting.

Betsy Hp:
Yes, but don't we learn later that those who consider themselves 
Death Eater's actually bare a mark on their forearms?  In 
otherwords, I'm sure there were Death Eater sympathizers (like those 
folks who joined in on the muggle torture at the World Cup), but it 
takes something special to be chosen by Voldemort to bare his mark.

> >>a_svirn:
> Voldemort himself mockingly calls them "my true family" apparently 
> quibbling on the Latin sense of the word: `household dependants', 
> `servants'. (The "family" greeted him grovelling and hailing him   
> as "Master".) Granted he did say (again mockingly) that they      
> are "still united under the Dark Mark", meaning "under my banner". 
> But it is *his* symbol, not theirs.

Betsy Hp:
I agree.  It is Voldemort who decides if you're worthy enough to 
join his little club.  And then he marks you as his.
 
> >>a_svirn: 
> I would agree however that DE is someone who joined Voldemorte's 
> side. Like Draco did. 

Betsy Hp:
Draco was certainly excited to be chosen, yes.  And I'm quite sure 
that if Voldemort had offered, Draco would have gladly been marked.  
In the beginning.  However, did Voldemort offer?  That's my question.
 
> >>a_svirn:
> You know, Betsy, while I admire your passionate defence of 
> Slytherins and even agree with you on the number of points, I must 
> say that personal appeals like this cannot be considered as a     
> strong argument. I don't particularly want to imagine myself a 
> megalomaniac.

Betsy Hp:
Well, poo.  So much for that approach. <g>  I'll add that it was a 
bit of a rhetorical question.  Unless the forced servant has 
something specific to offer (as Draco, with his gateway to Hogwarts, 
does) the eager servant is, generally, more reliable. (When I 
pretend to be a megalomaniac that's generally how I operate, anyway. 
*insert bwahaha here*)

> >>a_svirn:
> I do, however, agree with you that we should follow what the books 
> say. And they say that this particular megalomaniac doesn't care   
> much about loyalty. He values usefulness.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Didn't Barty Crouch go on and on about his loyalty?  Didn't Snape 
have to prove himself loyal?  Yes, Voldemort loves to use folks.  
The Imperious curse and all that.  But it's *loyal* followers who 
get to join the inner circle and bare his mark.  Voldemort does tend 
to use fear to keep that loyalty, which is a weakness, IMO.  But he 
does expect, I think, a certain level of loyalty.  

> >>a_svirn:
> And Voldemort doesn't have to choose between boy who has a family 
> to threaten and, say, his aunt who would gladly sacrifice her     
> family. 
> He has both. 

Betsy Hp:
But was the reluctanct boy considered good enough to join the inner 
circle and bare the mark of a Death Eater?  That's my question.

> >>a_svirn:
> I don't think that Draco approached Voldemort. 
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
I agree!  And that was, really, my main point.  Draco did not 
approach Voldemort.  Draco did not *ask* to be used.  I *do* believe 
Draco was thrilled beyond measure at being approached and was, at 
first, eager to prove himself worthy of *becoming* a Death Eater.  
But, most importantly, Draco was not given an opportunity to 
choose.  That was given to him by Dumbledore on the Tower.  And at 
that point Draco, who finally realized what being a Death Eater 
really meant, chose to lower his wand.

I'm not saying that Draco went into HBP as this perfect little 
angel.  But he does end HBP as someone who's chosen to *not* obey 
Voldemort and as someone who's been blessed (in effect) by 
Dumbledore, and as someone who has, by refusing to kill, maintained 
his innocence.

> >>a_svirn:
> The DE "family" functions as a sort of a secret society, and       
> novices are likely to be carefully selected and then "approached". 
> <snip>
> Of course, it is not the sort of invitation you can easily refuse. 
> But it is true not only for Draco but for every DE, expect maybe  
> from the very first ones, who probably didn't realised from the   
> start what they were getting themselves into.

Betsy Hp:
I agree with this too.  And I'd catagorize Draco as a novice, or a 
Death Eater in training at the beginning of HBP.  I'm betting (no 
canon) that killing Dumbledore was the method chosen for Draco 
to "prove himself worthy".  However, since Voldemort seemed to 
expect Draco to fail, I don't think he was seriously considered as a 
true Death Eater candidate.

[In an aside: I think Bellatrix was hoping to have Draco succeed on 
his own so she'd receive some of his "glory" as his trainer.  But I 
think she was willing to let Draco die rather than allow Snape to 
help and gain some glory for himself.]

> >>a_svirn:
> Do suggest that Draco was under the Imperius?
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
No.  Not the actual curse.  But, after Christmas, his mother's life 
was being held hostage to his success.  Draco was being forced to 
act against his will, at this point. IMO, anyway.

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > <snip>
> > Draco was *preparing* himself to become a Death Eater by shutting
> > down compassion, however once he got on the road to becoming one 
> > he realized he couldn't shut his compassion down so completely.)
> > <snip>

> >>Marianne:
> Well, then how do you explain Draco's total lack of concern about 
> the opal necklace and the poisoned mead?
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
What "total lack of concern"?  The boy stopped grooming himself to 
such an extent even *Harry* noticed.  And that was only after the 
necklace incident.  I think it's also telling that Draco put both 
attempts into action at around the same time and then stopped using 
those methods.  If he was so unconcerned, why didn't he desperately 
try poison, etc., again?  Especially as the end of the school year 
(and consequently, his mother's execution) approached?

> >>Marianne:
> To me, Draco didn't give a fig who might have died on the way to  
> his killing of Dumbledore. They were all collateral damage, which 
> seems to fit in quite nicely with the DE code of conduct.

Betsy Hp:
And yet, IMO, it's obvious that Draco *does* care.  He brings them 
up when Dumbledore first says, "you are not a killer" (585).  And it 
can't be that he's bragging.  Draco realizes (as does Dumbledore) 
that both of those attempts are rather pathetic.  But he certainly 
recognizes that two people nearly died because of him.  That's why 
he tries to refute Dumbledore's statement.  And, to me, that 
indicates a certain amount of guilt. 

> >>Marianne:
> IMO, JKR *has* said it in the books - Draco is quite capable of
> killing anyone who gets in his way, as long as he doesn't have to
> actually look at them while he kills them. OTOH, he doesn't have  
> the balls to actually kill someone face-to-face, so maybe he      
> really isn't quality DE material.

Betsy Hp:
I guess Draco and Harry can hang out then.  Two ball-less boys, both 
not so hot on the face to face killing thing. <g>

For me to see Draco as a heartless long-distance killer I'd really 
need a body.  And an explination as to why Draco gave up the long-
distance killing thing so early into his attempt.  Oh, and also why 
Dumbledore described him as "not a killer" and an innocent.  (How is 
JKR telling us that Draco is a killer again? <eg>) 

Betsy Hp