Old, old problem.

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 150971

> > Alla:
> > I have to specify. I never saw Evilly Manipulative Dumbledore in 
the 
> > books and by evilly manipulative I don't mean DD who is on the 
Dark 
> > side, but the one who takes away people's freedom of choice for 
the 
> > sake of it.
> 
> Draeconin:
> *confused frown* I don't think I ever made the allegation that
> Dumbledore was evil. IMO he was forging the weapon that he believed
> would be needed.  He was the hero that defeated Grindlewald, then 
an
> unofficial general of sorts in the first war against Voldemort. You
> don't become good at the latter job, anyway, without being able to
> look  at people as playing pieces.  You don't want to lose them, 
but
> you do what you believe is necessary in order to win the game.

Alla:

Well, I said that by "evilly manipulative" I don't mean DD being on 
the Dark side, but yes, I think that the kind of person you describe 
who simply looks at the people as chess pieces is evil. IMO of 
course.

I DO think that commander should be able to do certain level of 
manipulation in order as you said to win the game, BUT that's I 
think the main difference between yours POV and mine. I don't think 
DD manipulates much, he allows people to make their own choices AND 
whatever manipulation he does is to help WW, not for his personal 
gain.

Alla: 
> > DD makes HUGE mistakes, many of them, in my book, but I do think 
> > that he is a good man, who is in charge of Light side and simply 
> > struggles to juggle too many reponsibilities at the same time, 
<snip>
> 
> Draeconin:
> No argument from me, although a couple of my stories take it 
further,
> to a man desperate to remain in control and will do almost 
anything to
> keep it.

Alla:

Well, that is I just don't see. I am again going to ask you for 
canon which supports the argument that DD is a man desperate to 
remain in control and will do almost anything to keep it. You see, 
DD who refuses MOM position does not sound to me like man desperate 
to remain in control. Dumbledore who is leaving school in CoS 
because Governors said so, also does not look to me like man 
desperate to remain in control.

Dumbledore who is powerless to stop Umbridge also does not fit IMO 
the profile of the man willing to do anything to remain in control, 
when he is so clearly NOT in control of school in OOP IMO.

I don't know I just don't see Dumbledore's desperation to remain in 
control in canon. Examples, please?


> Draeconin:
> No.  Petunia is, I think, scared almost spitless of him, and would 
be
> terrified of his retaliation were she to do any such thing.

Alla:

Well, that is possible of course. It is also possible that Vernon 
could have thrown Harry out on the streets just as he tried to do in 
OOP and Petunia would not have been home at the moment to stop it, 
no?
 
> Draeconin:
> <SNIP>
> Okay, I've changed my mind. There's a third option. Pychologically
> challenged Dumbledore.  It fits all the facts so much better! lol

Alla:

Believe it or not, even though you seem to be joking, I do believe 
it fits facts better than Puppetmaster!Dumbledore. But I will 
rephrase it a little bit, instead of "psychologically challenged" 
Dumbledore, I would put "emotional idiot" Dumbledore. He is 150 
years old and is it such a wonder that at such old age he forgot how 
youth feels? Is it so difficult to imagine that he indeed forgot how 
hurtful scars of the youth could be and Snape could not have 
overcome that? ( And no, I don't justify what Snape does to Harry AT 
ALL, in case you have not read my other posts. :) I think he is 
complete and utter bastard for taking out on the innocent child 
whatever grudges he has with James) But I think it is perfectly 
understandable for Dumbledore to forget that "some wounds run too 
deep".
 
> > Alla:
> > Why would he want a weapon? Why?

>Draeconin: 
> Er... Voldemort? Death Eaters?
>
Alla: 
> > Where in the books you see the signs that Dumbledore wants the 
> > political power? 
> 
> Draeconin:
> Where in the world did you get the idea I was referring to 
politics or
> political power?

Alla:

Sorry for misunderstanding you. But could you please clarify what 
kind of power you were referring to then?

I thought you were saying that Dumbledore wants Harry as his weapon 
because he wants personal control in order to achieve some kind of 
the political gain for himself? 

And my question as to why he would want a weapon still stands, 
because I think that Dumbledore trusts Harry's heroic nature, and 
trusts that he would want to fight the man who killed his parents 
without Dumbledore controling him and telling him what to do.

I think DD trusts that Harry will figure things for himself and 
makes the right choice.

JMO,

Alla