[HPforGrownups] Scene with likeable James WAS: Re: Eileen Pince

[Joe Goodwin]

No: HPFGUIDX 156373

colebiancardi <muellem at bc.edu> wrote:

<snip actual passage>
now, based on that passage - with the look of disapproval(frown lines)
on Lupin's face and Wormtail's look of glee on his and Snape's
reaction - it seems that James & Sirius did this type of ambush to
Snape frequently. James called out to Snape, not using Snape's name,
but an insulting nickname - loudly and clearly for all to hear. A
challenge, so to speak. Snape went on the defensive by trying to get
his wand out, but James, although not mentioned, must have had his
wand out already, as I doubt that 5th years had learned yet to cast a
spell without a wand.      

  Joe:
  Sorry but that doesn't make sense. JKR shows Snape going for his wand but makes no mention of either James or Sirius having their wands out. As I said James WAS looking for a confrontation. It is canon however that Snape went for his wand while there is no mention of either of the other boys having drawn theirs. PS doesn't James later cast Levicopus non-verbally?

  
Colebiancardi:
with or without the wand, James initiated this scene, goaded on by
Sirius and Wormtail. This is bullying. Regardless of past
altercations, Snape was minding his own business. Sirius was *bored*
to tears and James made things lively for the group, by starting the
attack - James provoked it. Not Snape. Snape would have probably
walked on by without a word. Lupin doesn't say anything, but his
disapproval is written on his face, and he seems to be afraid to say
anything - is it because he worries that his friends won't like him
anymore? That they will let slip his secret? Peer Pressure is a
horrible thing at that age. Say the wrong thing and you are dumped
like a hot potatoe.
   
  Joe:
  I agree James was probably going to say something very unpleasant. Sanpe however is the one who from all appearances initiated the real aggression. James and Sirius were so loyal to Lupin that not only did they not drop him as a friend but they did all the work to become Animagi to help him with his issues. You peer pressure comments ring very hollow in the face of canon evidence.


Colebiancari:
As far as the observers not liking Snape or their behavior makes Snape
to be unpopular, there is a passage that leads me to believe that some
of the students were also afraid of James & Sirius - "Some looked
apprehensive, others entertained." Another passage states that "many of the surrounding watchers laughed, Sirius & Wormtail included, but Lupin, still apparently intent on his book, didn't, and neither did Lily."
   
  Joe:
  Yet the only observer we state states "That Snape was clearly unpopular."  With no other canon evidence to the contrary it is safe to say that he WAS clearly unpopular.


Colebiancardi:
I remember middleschool & grade school and bullying was also done by
girls. I was picked on.... <snip>
Their excuse for not helping me? They were afraid they would be targeted next by this girl if they tried to take my side. I
understood - heck, I tried to avoid this girl all the time by lying low.

I see the same thing here in the scene. I think that there were some
people who didn't like Snape, some people who did like Snape, but were
too scared for their own skins to help him at the time.
   
  Joe:
  Nope, we have someone on the scene who is observing it. None of those things were even considered. The only canon statement was that Snape was unpopular. Your own personal experiences aside we have no reason to think that. Harry is quite clear on his interpertation and as others so often say "Harry is the view we get." If we are to accept Harry's view that James was out of line then why should we not accept his view that Snape was obviously unpopular?


Colebiancardi:
Bullies are bullies - I don't care if they are beautiful people or
not. In this scene, James & Sirius were the ones that started the
attack. Lupin knew it to be wrong, as did Lily. Perhaps Snape's
attacks on James & Sirius was in reaction to their picking on him. I
don't know. But to paint this scene as something else is just
excusing bad behavior.
   
  Joe:
  Once again I have to say you are wrong. James and Sirius were going to create a confrontation to be certain. As I said above it was Snape who went for what is for all intents and purposes a weapon.


Colebiancardi:
(there is a reason why the term "frat boy" is not considered a good
term. I consider James & Sirius, at that point in their lives, to be
frat boys. They did grow out of it, at least James did. I don't
think Sirius ever really did)
   
  Joe:
  Thas is of course your own personal bias. Plenty of people have no negative connotation with the term "Frat boy". I know as well as most people who went to college that there were frat guys who acted like jerks and frat guys who spent tons of time working for charities. I don't think real world predudices have any place in this discussion however.
   
  Joe