Scene with likeable James WAS: Re: Eileen Pince

[colebiancardi]

No: HPFGUIDX 156376

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Joe Goodwin 
<joegoodwin1067 at ...> wrote:
 
> 
--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Joe Goodwin 
<joegoodwin1067 at ...> wrote:
>
> >   Sorry but that doesn't make sense. JKR shows Snape going for 
his wand but makes no mention of either James or Sirius having their 
wands out. As I said James WAS looking for a confrontation. It is 
canon however that Snape went for his wand while there is no mention 
of either of the other boys having drawn theirs. PS doesn't James 
later cast Levicopus non-verbally?
> 

colebiancardi:
alas, I don't have my book in front of me.  However, I still stand by 
my statement that Snape was on the defense - James was on the offense 
and had the upper hand and was the attacker.  It doesn't matter if 
their wands weren't drawn - they looking for a fight.

  >   
> Colebiancardi:
> with or without the wand, James initiated this scene, goaded on by
> Sirius and Wormtail. This is bullying. Regardless of past
> altercations, Snape was minding his own business. Sirius was *bored*
> to tears and James made things lively for the group, by starting the
> attack - James provoked it. Not Snape. Snape would have probably
> walked on by without a word. Lupin doesn't say anything, but his
> disapproval is written on his face, and he seems to be afraid to say
> anything - is it because he worries that his friends won't like him
> anymore? That they will let slip his secret? Peer Pressure is a
> horrible thing at that age. Say the wrong thing and you are dumped
> like a hot potatoe.
>    
>   Joe:
>   I agree James was probably going to say something very 
unpleasant. Sanpe however is the one who from all appearances 
initiated the real aggression. James and Sirius were so loyal to 
Lupin that not only did they not drop him as a friend but they did 
all the work to become Animagi to help him with his issues. You peer 
pressure comments ring very hollow in the face of canon evidence.
> 
colebiancardi:  you misunderstood what I posted.  Lupin DID NOT speak 
out - why not?  He states in OotP that he should have, but he 
didn't.  Was it because of that fear?  If you go along with the flow, 
as he did, there was no reason *not* to drop him as a friend.  
However, what would have happened to Lupin if he did speak out, 
publically, as Lily did, to James & Sirius and took Snape's side in 
this matter?  I don't think my peer pressure comments ring at all 
hollow - the canon shows that teen Lupin didn't do anything, yet 
adult Lupin thinks he should have said something to them about this.



> Colebiancari:
> As far as the observers not liking Snape or their behavior makes 
Snape
> to be unpopular, there is a passage that leads me to believe that 
some
> of the students were also afraid of James & Sirius - "Some looked
> apprehensive, others entertained." Another passage states 
that "many of the surrounding watchers laughed, Sirius & Wormtail 
included, but Lupin, still apparently intent on his book, didn't, and 
neither did Lily."
>    
>   Joe:
>   Yet the only observer we state states "That Snape was clearly 
unpopular."  With no other canon evidence to the contrary it is safe 
to say that he WAS clearly unpopular.

Colebiancardi:
Ah, but we only see that scene and what Harry saw.  If Snape was "so" 
clearly unpopular, why did some watchers look apprehensive?
> 
> 
> Colebiancardi:
> > I see the same thing here in the scene. I think that there were 
some
> people who didn't like Snape, some people who did like Snape, but 
were
> too scared for their own skins to help him at the time.
>    
>   Joe:
>   Nope, we have someone on the scene who is observing it. None of 
those things were even considered. The only canon statement was that 
Snape was unpopular. Your own personal experiences aside we have no 
reason to think that. Harry is quite clear on his interpertation and 
as others so often say "Harry is the view we get." If we are to 
accept Harry's view that James was out of line then why should we not 
accept his view that Snape was obviously unpopular?
> 
colebiancardi: 
well, a) Harry saw, with his own eyes, what James did to Snape.  And 
he knows about bullying, being that he was bullied for years.  And b) 
Harry NEVER hears anyone state that Snape is unpopular.  As a matter 
of fact, doesn't Sirius or Lupin state that Snape was "thick" with 
those witches & wizards who later became DE's?  
(I wish I had my book on me - that is what I get for posting at work -
 LOL)

also, not everyone watching was watching with glee or laughing at the 
scene.  Please read the quotes from the book again.  It makes it 
quite clear that there was a difference of opinion on what was 
happening.

> 
> Colebiancardi:
> Bullies are bullies - I don't care if they are beautiful people or
> not. In this scene, James & Sirius were the ones that started the
> attack. Lupin knew it to be wrong, as did Lily. Perhaps Snape's
> attacks on James & Sirius was in reaction to their picking on him. I
> don't know. But to paint this scene as something else is just
> excusing bad behavior.
>    
>   Joe:
>   Once again I have to say you are wrong. James and Sirius were 
going to create a confrontation to be certain. As I said above it was 
Snape who went for what is for all intents and purposes a weapon.
> 
colebiancardi:

James and Sirius were the attackers - they started it.  All Snape was 
doing was defending himself.  How is that wrong?  If someone starts 
goading me into a fight, should I wait for that person to beat the 
carp out of me before I hit back?  
  
> Colebiancardi:
> (there is a reason why the term "frat boy" is not considered a good
> term. I consider James & Sirius, at that point in their lives, to be
> frat boys. They did grow out of it, at least James did. I don't
> think Sirius ever really did)
>    
>   Joe:
>   Thas is of course your own personal bias. Plenty of people have 
no negative connotation with the term "Frat boy". I know as well as 
most people who went to college that there were frat guys who acted 
like jerks and frat guys who spent tons of time working for 
charities. I don't think real world predudices have any place in this 
discussion however.
>  

colebiancardi:
not my "personal bias"  .  Do a google on "frat boy" and tell me if 
it is considered a "nice" term.  It isn't.   One of the nicer 
definations I found is this:
"member of an all male social club. see misogynist, high school 
mentality, social ineptitude, and inferiority complex."

real world predudices?  Aren't you the one who stated that all boys 
behave in this manner - the high-spirited hijinks of teenage years?  
and that we shouldn't blow this "prank" out of proporation?

I am sorry, but holding someone inmobile, knocking them down, washing 
their mouth out with soap and then pantsing them is not a "prank".

I am sure Snape "gave it as good as he got", according to Lupin and 
Sirius, but since we only have this scene to go on, this is 
bullying.  And 2 to 1 is not a fair fight.  

colebiancardi