Scene with likeable James WAS: Re: Eileen Pince

[wynnleaf]

No: HPFGUIDX 156385


> colebiancardi <muellem at ...> wrote:
> 
> <snip actual passage>
> now, based on that passage - with the look of disapproval(frown lines)
> on Lupin's face and Wormtail's look of glee on his and Snape's
> reaction - it seems that James & Sirius did this type of ambush to
> Snape frequently. James called out to Snape, not using Snape's name,
> but an insulting nickname - loudly and clearly for all to hear. A
> challenge, so to speak. Snape went on the defensive by trying to get
> his wand out, but James, although not mentioned, must have had his
> wand out already, as I doubt that 5th years had learned yet to cast a
> spell without a wand.      
> 
>   Joe:
>   Sorry but that doesn't make sense. JKR shows Snape going for his
wand but makes no mention of either James or Sirius having their wands
out. 

wynnleaf
Are you trying to say that James was using wandless magic when he did
that Expelliarmus?  My guess is you're not.  You can't have it both
ways.  Either JKR just didn't bother to mention James taking his wand
out, or he did wandless magic.  The implication -- that he was
obviously *intending* to start a fight, that he called out to Snape
using a derogatory name and to have some fun and relieve Sirius'
boredom, was that he *did* have his wand out.  When Lily later asked
him for a reason, he certainly didn't say, "because Snape drew his
wand on us and was trying to hex us..." which he *could* have said if
that had occurred.  He said "because he exists."  It's very clear who
was the aggressor, and JKR not mentioning James' wand doesn't change
that -- unless you want to say that you think James was doing wandless
magic, in which case he had a huge advantage and had no need to "draw"
first.

Joe
As I said James WAS looking for a confrontation. It is canon however
that Snape went for his wand while there is no mention of either of
the other boys having drawn theirs. PS doesn't James later cast
Levicopus non-verbally?

wynnleaf
As I said, there's no canon that mentions specifically when James drew
his wand.  There is the strong implication that he did.  And even if
he didn't have his wand out (let's assume that for the moment), he
certainly had a huge advantage being the one to start the altercation
-- knowing the exact timing, etc.  Lupin and Pettigrews different
reactions both indicate they knew James was about to start a fight.  

PS, apparently Snape can do non-verbal spells, too -- the cutting
spell.  DADA classes were so poor at Hogwarts in Harry's day that even
Hermione seems unaware of nonverbal spells in 5th year (tried to
silence a DE as a defence tactic).

>   Joe:
>   I agree James was probably going to say something very unpleasant.
Sanpe however is the one who from all appearances initiated the real
aggression. James and Sirius were so loyal to Lupin that not only did
they not drop him as a friend but they did all the work to become
Animagi to help him with his issues. You peer pressure comments ring
very hollow in the face of canon evidence.

wynnleaf
Since writing the above, I realized we had an eyewitness account.

Quote from "Career Advice" chapter when Harry talks with Lupin and Sirius:

"Yeah," said Harry, "but he just attacked Snape for no good reason. 
Just because -- well, just because you said you were bored."

Eyewitness account -- Harry said James attacked for no good reason. 
I'm sure Harry could see who drew first.

Further, Lupin and Sirius appeared to remember that particular
incident and spoke of getting carried away and not being proud of it.
 On another occasion (sorry, will have to look for where), Lupin said
that Dumbledore made him a prefect to try to curb the activities of
Sirius and James, but that he had failed to do that.   JKR herself has
said that Lupin has a weakness and "his failing is that he does like
to be liked and that's where he slips up because he has been disliked
so often that he's always so pleased to have friends so he cuts them
and awful lot of slack."  

     
>   Joe:
>   Yet the only observer we state states "That Snape was clearly
unpopular."  With no other canon evidence to the contrary it is safe
to say that he WAS clearly unpopular.
    <snips>

Joe
>   Nope, we have someone on the scene who is observing it. None of
those things were even considered. The only canon statement was that
Snape was unpopular.

wynnleaf
My guess is that he really *was* unpopular.  So what??  I was pretty
unpopular in school, too.  Lots of very introverted, geeky, bright
loner people with unusual interests are a bit unpopular. Add to it
being physically unattractive, possibly exhibiting characteristics of
his mill town background, *and* being from the hated house Slytherin.
 He probably *was* unpopular.  I really don't think that's some sort
of justification for anyone else's aggression.  However, it is very
common for some people to prey on the least popular kids in school and
hold them up as objects of scorn, for no other reason than, as James'
says, because they exist.
    
   
>   Joe:
>   Once again I have to say you are wrong. James and Sirius were
going to create a confrontation to be certain. As I said above it was
Snape who went for what is for all intents and purposes a weapon.

wynnleaf
Well Harry's eyewitness account puts that issue to rest, since he
clearly states that James attacked for *no* reason.