Lupin vs. Snape (Was: OFH SNAPE)

[Renee]

No: HPFGUIDX 157045

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Marion Ros" <mros at ...> wrote:
>
> Renee:
> >>>Are you suggesting Snape is *afraid* of Lupin until he's drunk his
> Wolfsbane Potion? But if that's the case, then how do you explain
> Snape's actions in the Shrieking Shack? If making Lupin drink his
> potion was so all-important to him, he wouldn't have wasted precious
> time acting out his revenge game on Sirius in the Shack. <<<
> 

<Sorry for the huge snippage, but as I've been called to account
recently by one of the Elves for not snipping enough, I'll strip the
reply down to the essentials.>      

Marion:
if *I* were Snape, I would've AK-ed both Black and Lupin in a second.
I'd probably get a reward for Black ('dead or alive', wasn't it?) and
bagging his werewolf helper on a night of a full moon can't be seen as
murder, surely. But Snape has but one priority: getting the kids out
of there and subdueing Black and Lupin.

Renee:
An AK is an Unforgivable, and even the Aurors needed special
permission during the first Voldemort War to use those curses, so I'm
far from sure Snape would have gotten away with using one without 
authorisation. But I guess he could have used Sectumsempra; this looks
pretty effective in HBP.    

Marion:
> Perhaps Snape is just too civilised to just come in and start
killing people, no matter how heinous. Maybe he needs a little more
justification ("don't make me do it, Black!") before he starts
blasting two men in front of the kiddies.
> Maybe.
> But we do know that Snape wants the kids *out* of there. Fast.
> 
Renee:
Fast? Really? Not a good idea then to start engaging in altercations
with everyone present except Ron. He talks quite a lot in that scene
for someone who's in a hurry, sharing a room with an unsafe werewolf
who's going to transform soon. He could at least have pointed out the
danger to cut the others short, yet he does nothing of the kind. I
just don't get the impression fear is the overriding emotion for Snape
here. Snape is not a very fearful person, IMO.    
  
 
> Renee, previously:
> >>>What I see in the scene with Harry is a man trying to assert his
hold on someone who depends on his goodwill. But Lupin doesn't play
along.  And I don't see why he should - it wasn't his fault that he
nearly killed Snape. I could see Lupin reason that if he meekly
consents to do what Snape tells him, it might leave Snape with the
impression he's admitting his guilt. And as he doesn't like Snape,
he's not going to please him. Also, if you're dependent on medicine,
it both galling and humiliating to have someone you don't like tell
you to take it and actually trying to supervise you doing so.
Especially before a witness who also happens to be a student of yours. <<<
> 
> 
> Marion:
 I see a man who is dangerous getting a job as a teacher on the stict
condition that he takes his medicine. He would be too much of a danger
to the children otherwise. Wanna bet that Dumbledore gave Snape the
order "You will brew his this potion, Severus, and you will see to it
that he *drinks* it. I won't endanger the children, but that means he
*must* take it. You above all others know how dangerous Lupin can be,
dear boy.."

Renee:
You know, this reminds me of the picture that can represent either an
antelope or a pelican, depending on the viewer. Actually, if I try, I
can see Snape's viewpoint; so maybe you could do the same for Lupin. 

What is too hard to imagine for me, is that Dumbledore has told Snape
to supervise Lupin. This seems completely OOC for the Headmaster with
his laissez-faire attitude. Not to mention that it would hardly be a
workable situation for Snape if DD hadn't communicated these orders to
 Lupin - but that would boil down to saying: Lupin, I don't trust you
to be responsible and take the potion of your own accord. 
Can you truly see DD doing so? I can't.  


Marion: 
> People in the fandom tend to see werewolves as AIDS patients:
shunned, harmless, misunderstood.
> Red Hen likenes Lupin to a schizophrenic, who doesn't want to take
his medicine because it makes him feel unlike himself.
> I tend to liken them to pedophiles. 

Renee:
JKR has said Lupin represents people's attitude towards illness, but
she's actually muddied these waters in HBP by turning Greyback into a
metaphor for pedophiles. So I can see where you're coming from. And
the chocolate joke at the beginning of PoA has a certain effect, too -
doesn't it, Pippin? ;)  

Marion:
pedophilia is a good way to go at it because pedophilia is seen as a
disease and yet at the same time the public has no compassion for a
pedophile.

Renee:
Hm... Maybe JKR is trying to create a bit more compassion then?  


Marion
> Now suppose a young boy got accosted at school once by one of those
beasts. It was hushed up, of course, the school didn't need the bad
publicity. Twenty years later, the boy has become a teacher and lo and
behold, his one time accoster turns up as an interim teacher as well.
The head of the school, knowing of the new teacher's 'affiction',
agrees to hire him on the condition that he takes drugs to 'curb his
urges'. The one to administer them to him is his one-time victim,
because a) he makes the stuff and b) the matter was hushed up; not
many know of the man's affliction.
> Now, picture the whole scene again, with this in mind.

Renee:
Sorry, I can't, because this is not a good comparison. 
a) Lupin and Snape were peers at school and are still peers in PoA,
and a pedophile is never his victim's peer. There's a power difference
that doesn't exist in the Lupin - Snape relationship.  
b) Lupin didn't take the initiative. Snape sought out Lupin, not the
other way around. That he didn't know what he was in for, doesn't
change this.
c) JKR has said we haven't got all the information concerning the
Prank. New information may shed an entirely new light on this
particular episode. DD's reply `My memory is as good as it ever was'
when Snape points out Sirius tried to murder him, sounds rather
ominous to me in this respect. 

Marion: 
> One-time victim of pedophile teacher comes to bring him drugs to
render him temporarily safe for the children he has to teach.
> Pedophile teacher gives 'special lessons' to a boy, who's there when
one-time victim enters with the medicine.
> Pedophile teacher looks his one-time victim in the face, smiles, and
says, "Oh, just put it there. I will take it when you're gone."
> 
> Doesn't sound *half* as nice anymore, does it?

Renee:
Doesn't sound like the same thing at all. Harry was in no immediate
danger from Lupin, unless the moon was full that night, but we're not
told it was. 

Also, don't you think pedophiles who aven't actually harmed anyone
should be allowed to retain their dignity when it comes to taking
medicine? It's Snape's right not to trust Lupin, but it's Lupin's
right not to give in to pressure *as long as he hasn't slipped*. 

Marion: 
> There have been studies which prove that how a person is introduced
matters to how that person continues to be perceived. If a person is
introduced as 'Tom Brown, who murdered his father when he was 17, is
very kind to his aged, silver-haired mother and who is an active
member of the Association for Protection of Helpless Kittens', we tend
to think Tom Brown a filthy fathermurder, a youthful delinquent who is
possibly pulling the wool over our eyes with that silver-haired mother
and those kittens. The hypocrite!
> If he is introduced as 'Tom Brown, who is very kind to his aged,
silver-haired mother and who is an active member of the Association
for Protection of Helpless Kittens, and who murdered his father when
he was 17', we tend to see him as a kind man who probably had good
reasons to kill his father. Probably the father was a drunk and abused
the poor mother (that's why her hair is prematurely grey, of course!)

 
> Lupin is introduced to us as a kind, patient softspoken man who
takes frights away from children and who deals out chocolates, but who
turns out to be a werewolf.
> Snape is introduced as and ugly man with a hooked nose, who is
strict and sarcastic and who has no patience for fools. A man dressed
in black, who looks scary and acts scary. And he rescues and protects
the children in his care.


Renee:
I'd be more inclined to agree with the applicability of of this
example - nice idea to name the boy `Tom' :) - if Lupin had actually
committed a murder at some point. Which we don't know that he has. 
Snape, though, has voluntarily become a member of a racist & terrorist
organisation in his youth. That he's changed his ways (and ESE!Snape
is the one possibility I have trouble believing in) does not undo his
past. And we find out about this pastt *after* discovering he was not
the villain in any of the previous books and actually tried to protect
the Hogwarts students. 
Wait a minute - maybe that's the reason he's so popular? If I've not
miscounted, there are more Snape-apologists on this list than
defenders of Lupin.      

Marion: 
> And then it turned out that werewolves tended to take after Fenrir
more than after Lupin.

Renee:
Are you arguing werewolves are no good after all?

Marion:
> And really, was Lupin ever *really* concerned about the possible
death and injury he could inflict? He seems rather flippant in PoA
when he reminisces about his schooldays, roaming around with his
animagus friends, laughing in retrospect about how *dangerous* it was
to break his promise to Dumbledore and run free as a werewolf ("there
were a few narrow escapes").

Renee:
He's not flippant about it in PoA. He laughed *at the time*. But in
the Shrieking Shack scene, he says `heavily' that the thought that he
could have bitten somebody `still haunts' him, and he's quite critical
about his behaviour as a student. So Lupin did develop a conscience in
the mean time, even though, unfortunately, he doesn't succeed in
acting on it when he's under strain. He remains a flawed character.
But there's no need to talk about him/treat him as if he's a criminal
with a bad record. 

Renee
(who fevently hopes she snipped enough to escape the wrath of the Elves)