What Came First: Task or Cabinet? - The Plan v1 & v2

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 157630

> bboyminn:
>
> "Spinner's End"; read it again. Narcissa /suspects/ the
> Ministry Muck-up is the motivtion. Snape agrees that
> Voldemort is angry, but never confirms his motivations.
>
> The Dairy is never mention. And when Dumbledore mentions
> it, he doesn't make a big deal out of it. So, the emphasis
> on the Dairy is mostly fan speculation.
>
> Magpie asserted with absolute indisputable authority that
> the Dairy was that the center of it all, and flat out
> told me I was wrong.

Magpie:
I actually did not assert with absolute indisputable authority that
the Diary was the center of it all. I don't have to do that for
what I was saying you were wrong about-anything that leads to LV 
angry at Lucius and wanting to punish him supports my version. What 
I referred to were the three things you referred to above: there's a 
scene where Narcissa basically says, "Voldemort is angry at Lucius, 
isn't he? Over what happened at the MoM? And that's why he's chosen 
Draco?" and Snape agrees Voldemort is angry and that this is why he 
Draco must do the task. Then later when we've come to understand 
what Horcruxes are and how important they are to the vanquishing of 
Voldemort Dumbledore tells us he's heard Voldemort was furious about 
the Diary and Lucius must be really happy to be safe in Azkaban. 
Narcissa would not know about Horcruxes, of course, and it could not 
have been introduced into the story in Spinner's End without I think
tipping too much about Horcruxes. So we start out with the scenario
that Voldemort is angry at Lucius, that he's given Draco this
suicide mission that must be Draco's because Voldemort is so angry.
Later in the story we're given a reason for more Voldemort anger
that ties into the Horcrux plot as well.

So what I said, I thought quite clearly, was that the story gives us
Voldemort's anger at Lucius connected to Draco's suicide mission.
That's the only motivation we're given for Voldemort giving Draco
this mission. It's a cruel and elegant revenge plot. Where I said
you were wrong was not that the MoM can't be important at all--that
doesn't relate to your theory either way. It was to say there is
not any suggestion anywhere of any alternate plot, specifically the
one where he's focused on Draco because Draco went to him with the
Cabinet plot. When Narcissa comes to the conclusion that this is
revenge and Snape looks away but can't pretend not to hear her, you
can stick in "Snape's not saying anything but he's thinking that
Narcissa's wrong and it's really that Draco brought him this great
Cabinet plot that's fabulous but not so fabulous that Voldemort
isn't going to use it in the service of his afterthought revenge
plot" as well as you can stick in anything, but since there's
nothing confirming that idea and the story just continues to spin
out in the "Malfoys are this close to being murdered by Voldemort"
direction I think there's far more canon there.

Steve:
I pointed out I was no more wrong
> than she was. Now it seems the very canon she relied on
> is denying the heart of her /theory/.

Magpie:
So you've decided that my theory is somehow that the Diary must be
the only reason for Voldemort's anger and if you can point out the
canon where Snape says he's angry about the MoM you've disproved
it? What an odd idea. You just quoted canon at me that *supports*
my theory, not denies it. Snape is talking about Voldemort being
angry and having reason to punish the Malfoys--Lucius is a screw
up. He screwed up at the MoM, which made Voldemort angry, and oh as
we continue into the story and learn about these bits of Voldemort's
soul we learn he was also furious to learn Lucius threw that away.
The fact that JKR knew where the Malfoys were going when she had
Lucius do that in CoS just adds to the wonderful revenge plot. But
neither one undercuts the other.  I don't see how I'm just as wrong 
as you are when you've had to acknowledge that my story is all in 
canon while your additional scenes are not.

Steve:
> Nothing about the Diary. I don't deny the Diary played
> some part, but the bulk of Voldemort's anger seems to
> be related to Lucuis screwing up the Ministry mission.

Magpie:
So you agree with me that canon presents Voldemort's anger at Lucius
screw ups as his motivation for giving Draco the task to kill
Voldemort? We're not disagreeing then.

bboyminn:
> Narcissa can imagine how anyone could expect Draco to kill
> someone that not even the Dark Lord himself could kill.

Magpie:
Um, yeah. Voldemort doesn't expect Draco to kill Dumbledore. Draco
is supposed to get himself killed. That's the idea.

bboyminn:
> I don't deny Voldemort's anger, but as I said before, you
> and Magpie are starting in the middle of the story, and I
> am filling in the back story leading up that middle.
>
> To prove my point, let's play a game called 'Meanie-Meanie'.
>
> Everything is condensed to it's most concise form.
>
> Scenario One - "Mean Voldemort"
>
> "Bring me Draco. Draco, your dad is an ass, now kill
> Dumbledore or die trying. Be gone!"
>
> Sorry, but that is not much of a plan.

In fact if he is
> just angry at Lucius, then why mess around with such a
> hopeless and pointless time wasting plan at all (or
> non-plan as I see it)? Why not just kill Draco and be
> done with it? Why throw away another year on a doomed
> and pointless plan?

Magpie:
Apparently you've never met our monster villain, Lord Voldemort.
He's a noseless chap whose hobbies include throwing away years on
plans destined to fail. This particular plan is actually one of his
best, with less potential for failure than, say, needing a 14-year-
old to win the TriWizard Tournament in order to get him to touch a
Portkey. This plan has every reason to succeed.

And why suggest he's throwing away a year on it? I thought we're
told he's actually causing a lot of trouble in the world throughout
the year. What time does he waste on the Draco plan? He gives him
the order, and occasionally makes threats when the kid doesn't get
himself killed fast enough. It's not a hopeless plan, it's a plan
designed for maximum cruelty. One might as well ask why that Nazi
in Sophie's Choice messes around with making that Polish woman
choose which one of her children goes to the gas chamber. Why not
just toss them both in instead of pointlessly making her choose?

bboyminn:>
> I know I've said before that Voldemort is irrational, but
> even he is not THAT irrational.

Magpie:
Yeah, he is. Especially since the only irrational bit is that he's
irrational enough to get a teenager killed to punish his father.

bboyminn:>
>
> Scenario Two - "Mean Draco/Mean Voldemort"

Magpie:
The title pretty much says it all here--this story would just be so
much nicer if it were the usual comeuppance!

bboyminn:
> Draco, wanting vengence against Harry and Dumbledore,
> realizes the potential of the Cabinet.

Magpie:
Draco has never shown any desire for revenge against Dumbledore. He
did swear vengeance on Harry at the end of OotP but in HBP has no
interest in Harry whatsoever. Canon suggests pretty clearly imo that
this is because his chance to be a man by doing the task Voldemort
has chosen him for (making him special) made him no longer so
jealous of Harry. So out of the gate the prime motivations you've
got for Draco are wonky and not being dramatized. JKR is
concentrating on him proving himself a man, you want him driven by
revenge against Harry and Dumbledore.

bboyminn:

> Through a set of cirucmstances, he brings this to
> Voldemort's attention.

Magpie:
"A set of circumstances" here standing in for "just imagine there
was any suggestion that any of this happened at all."

bboyminn:
> Voldemort likes the idea. The perfect scheme to attack
> Hogwarts and Dumbledore. So he sets Draco the task of
> fixing the cabinet so DE's can enter the castle. A little
> more than Draco bargained for but still doable and not so
> critical.
>
> Then Voldemort says, "By the way, you dad is an ass, so
> I'm going to let you personally kill Dumbledore or die
> trying. Be Gone!"

bboyminn:
So the important thing here is the attacking of Dumbledore and
Hogwarts by the DEs. Except at the climax it's not the important
thing at all. The DEs show up and help with the "By the way..."
part. Oh, and also making this plan difficult is the way Draco
apparently thinks his being "allowed" to kill Dumbledore is in fact
something he must do under threat of punishment (like it is in my
version), so he starts trying to kill him through other means, all
of which could have cut the Cabinet plot off completely. And the
DEs seem to have translated "I'm going to let you personally kill
Dumbledore..." as "You must kill Dumbledore. We can't do it. Even
if we're standing here in front of him." Every single step of the
way Draco's being ordered to kill Dumbledore himself takes
precedence for Voldemort what is supposedly his real priority.

bboyminn:
> From this point on, regardless of which scenario you buy,
> the story proceeds the same. There is nothing in my version
> that alters or contradicts what the rest of the story tells
> us. Both versions end with Draco being given the task of
> killing Dumbledore. Voldemort's motivation for assigning
> this task is the same in either case.

Magpie:
Actually, there is a lot in the story that contradicts or alters
your version, though you don't seem to see it. You say here that
Voldemort's motives are the same either way here, but above
Voldemort was supposed to "rationally" be interested in attacking
Hogwarts and Dumbledore more than the side issue of "letting" Draco
kill Dumbledore himself. More importantly, the *themes* of this
storyline are all about Draco's trying to rise to the challenge of a
man's job that he inherited now that his father's gone, and the
actual love in the Malfoy family being used against them and causing
them to go against Voldemort. Your story is about the dangers of
being eaten by revenge--which we quite possibly may learn is Snape's
story. Or the desire for petty power biting you on the butt or 
something.  Your version allows for family love as a secondary 
feeling, my story allows for revenge and a desire for power as a 
secondary feeling, but it makes a big difference which one of those 
feelings is the throughline of the story. Starting Draco out with 
revenge would, imo, absolutely make little changes throughout the 
entire story--we would see that motivation be tested and die and be 
addressed in the Tower, as we see happen to the slightly different 
motivations in canon.

bboyminn:
>
> Now ask yourself, which plan is /really/ a plan?
>
> I say scenario 1 is no plan at all; it is a hopeless waste
> of everything; time, resource, etc....

Magpie:
Yes, it is a plan. And Voldemort really isn't asking you if you
think it's a good way to spend his time. Sometimes he amuses
himself making disobedient followers suffer. It's not taking up all
of his time. As I think I suggested above, I find the some of his
plans in earlier books poorly thought out, but I accept them if I
can't fanwank them without corrupting other things.

bboyminn:
> I say scenerio 2 is a brilliant Master Plan for invading
> Hogwarts and ambushing Dumbledore, combined with a bit of
> psychological revenge on Lucuis and Narcissa. It must have
> been a good plan because it succeeded.

Magpie:
But what does your thinking scenario 2 is a brilliant master plan
have to do with what's written? And how is it such a dreadful waste
of time to give the Malfoy kid the task of killing Dumbledore as a
prelude to either getting him killed or killing him when the great
Master Plan for invading Hogwarts and ambushing Dumbledore comes
down to...giving the Malfoy kid the task of killing Dumbledore as a
prelude to either getting him killed or killing him. If Voldemort's
main objective is the killing of Dumbledore and invasion of Hogwarts
then I'm afraid I'm the one feelings the guy's wasting his
resources. That invasion of Hogwarts and ambush of Dumbledore, if
that's the point, was an embarassment. As the climax of the Malfoy
revenge plot that leads to surprising things it's great but as the
conclusion to the great invasion of Hogwarts plot it's a real dud.
The Invasion plan itself doesn't even have a goal as LV's plans do.
It's just "Get there and...cause trouble or something." The goal of
Draco's death is an actual goal. Is it on the level of getting the
Prophecy or the PS or opening the CoS? No. Those are plans for
Harry that show the larger evil scale. This is the effect his evil
has on smaller people who get involved with him.

-m