The DDM or ESE Snape debate Continues!!/Harry, Draco.

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 162321

> Magpie:
> This again is going a little too far, imo.  First, there is no 
indication 
> that Harry actually is moved by Malfoy's crying, and we certainly 
can't 
> assume that he would have done any particular thing if Malfoy 
hadn't hexed 
> him, much less listen to him and offer help.  Harry is shocked by 
Malfoy 
> crying--too shocked to move and leave, which I think would be more 
what he 
> would have done if he'd had his wits about him.

Alla:

I am not sure if Harry is moved by Malfoy's crying. Probably not, 
but he was shocked as you said and the possible indication that he 
felt something is IMO the fact that he does not try Sectusemptra 
right away, and he was itching to try it. I think he was moved tiny 
bit, but maybe not (too much to expect too suddenly)


Magpie:
> Harry does, of course, attempt Crucio elsewhere in canon.  I've 
come to 
> think of that being a common instinct in adolescent Wizard boys 
who want to 
> make other people hurt the way they do.  Harry has that kind of 
feeling a 
> lot himself.  I think in both cases it's actually very different 
from the 
> way Bellatrix throws a Crucio, and that that would always show in 
how the 
> curse came out.

Alla:

Likely I would agree, nevertheless, I would never compare the curse 
thrown at the killer of your loved one and the curse thrown at 
somebody.... why? I mean, yes, I agree with your basic premise - 
that Draco wanted Harry to hurt as badly as he was hurting, but I 
would put his curse **much** closer to Bella's one, because Harry 
did not kill Draco's loved one in front of him. I suppose you can 
argue that Draco wanted Harry to hurt for putting Lucius in jail, 
but that was still not imminent, IMO. Harry throws his curse minutes 
after Sirius' death.



> Magpie:
> Obviously Harry has tried to throw Crucio so would conisider 
throwing it. 
> And you're stretching "attack first" to mean "provoked" so imo 
that's not 
> accurate. (Presumably the way they're provoked justifies an attack 
unlike 
> the way another person might be provoked to attack them.) 

Alla:

Yes, often it is IMO. The original point as I understood it was 
though to argue against comparison of Trio condoning cruelty same 
way as Snape does. Snape attacks them unprovoked, no?


Magpie:
 Harry and the 
> Twins both attacked Malfoy in OotP because they were provoked, but 
they were 
> not attacked first.

Alla:

True, they should have kept themselves in check here.

Magpie:
  Nor were they attacked first in GoF.
<SNIP>

Alla:

Um, if we are talking about Train scene, I would strongly disagree. 
It is your right to consider that as not being attacked, I consider 
showing up uninvited and issuing death threats as attack and 
physical attack in making. Didn't they look as about to take their 
wands out?


Magpie:
<SNIP>
  Draco's two attacks on Harry in HBP are actually 
> kind of unique in that for once he's not really just starting 
things.

Alla:

Yes, Harry had no business being in their compartment. But I cannot 
even find adequate words to object against Draco not starting things 
in the bathroom. Harry was doing nothing to him before Draco thrown 
Crucio. That does not count as starting things? Self defense pure 
and simple as far as I am concerned and he still does not do 
Sectusemptra right away. Only when he is tripping on the floor.

And people are wondering why Snape did not press charges against 
Harry here. Um, maybe because Draco dearest would have landed in 
Azkaban first?

IMO,

Alla.