[HPforGrownups] The DDM or ESE Snape debate Continues!!/Harry, Draco.

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 162322

> Alla:
>
> I am not sure if Harry is moved by Malfoy's crying. Probably not,
> but he was shocked as you said and the possible indication that he
> felt something is IMO the fact that he does not try Sectusemptra
> right away, and he was itching to try it. I think he was moved tiny
> bit, but maybe not (too much to expect too suddenly)

Magpie:
I could believe that Harry might have been moved a bit (though he's 
conscious of being so)--Harry doesn't do anything bad to Malfoy in the 
scene, I agree.  I just think it's going to far to assume that Harry would 
have his heart melted by just the sight of Draco's crying.  He's shocked, 
but he's not suddenly sympathetic to his plight. Harry's been perfectly 
pleased by signs of Malfoy's distress in the past--this one just shocks him 
because it's so over the top.


> Magpie:
>> Harry does, of course, attempt Crucio elsewhere in canon.  I've
> come to
>> think of that being a common instinct in adolescent Wizard boys
> who want to
>> make other people hurt the way they do.  Harry has that kind of
> feeling a
>> lot himself.  I think in both cases it's actually very different
> from the
>> way Bellatrix throws a Crucio, and that that would always show in
> how the
>> curse came out.
>
> Alla:
>
> Likely I would agree, nevertheless, I would never compare the curse
> thrown at the killer of your loved one and the curse thrown at
> somebody.... why? I mean, yes, I agree with your basic premise -
> that Draco wanted Harry to hurt as badly as he was hurting, but I
> would put his curse **much** closer to Bella's one, because Harry
> did not kill Draco's loved one in front of him.

Magpie:
I don't think I would.  Because while obviously Harry hasn't done anything 
to Draco while Bellatrix just killed Sirius I think both boys are throwing 
the curse out of desperation and their own feelings.  Harry's walking in on 
Draco in the worst possible state Draco would want Harry to see him and 
Harry's probably getting the brunt of a lot of feelings besides even just 
that. So while I would say that Harry's Crucio makes more sense at Bella or 
Snape since they'd both just truly hurt him, I don't think that makes 
Draco's closer to Bellatrix's in terms of being about cold-blooded sadism. 
The distinction I'm making isn't in the circumstances--there I agree that 
someone having just murdered a loved one is totally different from someone 
just walking in on you crying.

Alla:
 I suppose you can
> argue that Draco wanted Harry to hurt for putting Lucius in jail,
> but that was still not imminent, IMO. Harry throws his curse minutes
> after Sirius' death.

Magpie:
That's not the connection I'm drawing.  Harry is certainly acting out of a 
more justified rage at the person in question.  I'm saying I think that 
Draco, too, was acting out of extreme emotion in the moment.   Neither of 
them are acting out of the kind thing that seems to make Bellatrix and Barty 
Crouch fans of the spell.


>> Magpie:
>> Obviously Harry has tried to throw Crucio so would conisider
> throwing it.
>> And you're stretching "attack first" to mean "provoked" so imo
> that's not
>> accurate. (Presumably the way they're provoked justifies an attack
> unlike
>> the way another person might be provoked to attack them.)
>
> Alla:
>
> Yes, often it is IMO. The original point as I understood it was
> though to argue against comparison of Trio condoning cruelty same
> way as Snape does. Snape attacks them unprovoked, no?

Magpie:
But condoning cruelty is not the same thing as acting out first.  And also 
it gets complicated because for the pov character the cruelty probably is 
often provoked.


> Magpie:
>  Nor were they attacked first in GoF.
> <SNIP>
>
> Alla:
>
> Um, if we are talking about Train scene, I would strongly disagree.
> It is your right to consider that as not being attacked, I consider
> showing up uninvited and issuing death threats as attack and
> physical attack in making. Didn't they look as about to take their
> wands out?

Magpie:
I don't think there's any suggestion of any of the Slytherins taking out 
their wands--nor do I think they're making death threats. (Predicting that 
in future you and your friends will be targetted by another person is not a 
death threat that I can see.  It's threatening to hear, but I don't think it 
could be considered a statement of intent to kill yourself.)  They are 
certainly being provoking, but nobody's attacked physically except 
themselves.

> Alla:
>
> Yes, Harry had no business being in their compartment. But I cannot
> even find adequate words to object against Draco not starting things
> in the bathroom. Harry was doing nothing to him before Draco thrown
> Crucio. That does not count as starting things? Self defense pure
> and simple as far as I am concerned and he still does not do
> Sectusemptra right away. Only when he is tripping on the floor.

Magpie:
I think even Harry recognizes that Draco is not just starting things in the 
bathroom.  He's a teenaged boy come upon by his worst peer enemy while he's 
crying like a baby.  Harry's unfortunately done something like accidentally 
cornering a wounded animal and it strikes at him.  Harry has not actually 
done anything wrong himself, and Draco doesn't have any justification for 
hurting Harry--but I can't believe that as another teenaged boy Harry 
wouldn't find Draco's attack in that scene inevitable, which is why Harry 
isn't really angry when he's fighting Malfoy the way he usually is. Draco is 
in a twisted way acting in response to Harry. It's not literal self-defense 
at all, but I do think he's acting out of a sense of defending himself.

Alla:
> And people are wondering why Snape did not press charges against
> Harry here. Um, maybe because Draco dearest would have landed in
> Azkaban first?

Magpie:
I have to say--I doubt it since Draco didn't actually cast the Unforgivable. 
Not that I have a big problem with Snape not pressing charges--I think 
pressing charges is rarely something that's going to happen in canon, and 
anyway it wasn't something I wanted Snape to do either.  But of all the 
reasons he had for not doing so, I don't think Malfoy going to prison was 
really a danger (for that at least).

-m