Harry, Draco and bathroom/ A couple of theories - Snape

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 162466

> > Magpie:
> > And you and Eggplant have made clear that that's your view on
it,
> > that injuring this person is fundamentally more different than
> > injuring a better person in ways that I don't agree.
> <SNIP>
>
> Alla:
>
> Better person in a sense that that person did not start Crucioing
you?
>
> Yes, in that sense I agree. If Harry indeed tried a curse out of
> curiosity on one of his classmates, I would have been furious with
> him.

Magpie:
Sure in terms of the context of why you're killing them that makes a
difference. (Though presumably in the hypothetical altercation with
Justin Finch-Fetchley he, too, might have pulled out a Crucio.) But
in a book so concerned with killing another person as something soul-
splitting I can't imagine the author's going for the idea that 
killing someone who was, after all, trying to hurt you is just fine--
not at all like the killing that's damaging to you as a person. And I
think she sets up this particular scene with that in mind. 

> Alla:
>
> Not killing people who are throwing Crucio at you. That is so much
> higher in my opinion than not nice to you. But again, even though
I
> agree that this is where JKR is going it is still IMO has nothing
to
> do with evaluation of Harry's actions here, or more precisely with
> evaluation of how guilty he should feel.

Magpie:
The reasons given for why it's totally different to kill Malfoy have
gone beyond his throwing a Crucio in that scene, but regardless my
point is that JKR is imo trying to humanize some of her worst 
characters here to reveal the moral points she's making.

I also think that "guilt" is a misleading word. I don't even recall
that that's exactly the word used to describe what Harry feels, and
it's a word I've been trying to avoid because "guilt" sounds like
Harry is worried about doing something mundanely naughty or
something and I don't think that's the point. The niggling of
conscience he feels, imo, is not that he feels that he wronged
Malfoy or broke a rule or a law but a bigger issue. Harry's I think
annoyed by people berating him for doing the "wrong" thing in
superficial ways. His private misgivings are I think more about not
wanting to think about actually ending the life of another boy in
his class he's known since he was 11 and who maybe isn't as alien
from him as he always thought. If he were just worried about who 
started it or whether he was on the defensive I don't think there'd 
be any problem--he's faced similar situations with Malfoy before 
without looking back.

Alla:
> I believe that JKR is taking him on the journey where he figures
that
> even bastards like Draco ( in my view of course) should not be
> killed, BUT I see no indication that this is how Harry **should
> feel**, except feeling guilty of his stupidity IMO.

Magpie:
So you don't think he should feel that even bastards like Malfoy
shouldn't be killed? Because I do think that JKR is making that
point strongly through Dumbledore especially. Or more accurately
that there's more to bastards like Malfoy than just being a bastard
like Malfoy. On this I agree with her. I think Harry should feel
more than just stupid--as should Malfoy himself for almost killing
Katie and Ron.

> > > > Magpie:
> > > > Just as it's not Draco's fault if Harry chose poorly...
> > >
> > > Amiable Dorsai:
> > > Why is it not Draco's fault? Draco is the aggressor here,
Draco
> is
> > > the one who has given Harry the choice of reacting or of being
> > > subjected to Cruciatus by someone who has taken summer lessons
> from
> > > Bellatrix Lestrange, Draco is the one who decided to escalate
> > things
> > > to the Unforgivable level.
> > >
> > > How do you so easily absolve him?
> >
> > Magpie:
> > I didn't absolve him--I think that's creating a false dilemma.
>
> Alla:
>
> It does? You said "It is not Draco's fault that Harry chose
poorly".
> Considering the fact that **but for** Draco starting the fight
Harry
> did not have to make this choice **at all** IMO, what is it, if
not
> absolving Draco?

Magpie:
It's not not using Draco to absolve Harry. Draco's got plenty of
things to be held accountable in the scene without writing Harry a
blank cheque imo. I think Sectumsempra adds something beyond that to 
the scene.

-m