Harry, Draco and bathroom

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 162467

Magpie:
<SNIP>
So you don't think he should feel that even bastards like Malfoy
shouldn't be killed? Because I do think that JKR is making that
point strongly through Dumbledore especially. Or more accurately
that there's more to bastards like Malfoy than just being a bastard
like Malfoy. 

Alla:
I must specify that I am talking **only** about self defense 
situation, so in situation of self-defense if Harry **still* decides 
that bastard like Malfoy, who threatened to kill him more than once, 
who did at least some bodily damage to him at least once, should not 
be killed, well – great.

If Harry would be trained enough, methodical enough to spare Malfoy's 
life , while in danger of being hurt himself – great again.

What I completely disagree with is that Harry in the situation of 
self defense has some sort of **obligation** to feel that way, unless 
he chooses to do so.

Magpie:
On this I agree with her. I think Harry should feel
more than just stupid--as should Malfoy himself for almost killing
Katie and Ron.
<SNIP>

Alla:

You are arguing that Harry and Draco should feel the same amount of 
remorse, while one was defending himself, while another was doing 
assassination thing?
I completely disagree.


> Magpie:
> It's not not using Draco to absolve Harry. Draco's got plenty of
> things to be held accountable in the scene without writing Harry a
> blank cheque imo. I think Sectumsempra adds something beyond that 
to 
> the scene.
>
Alla:
I guess we have to agree to disagree. I do cut blank check to person 
who defends himself and if Harry would not have been stupid wanting 
to try **unknown curse** before hand, I would have cut him that blank 
check.

That is what Sectusemptra added to that scene for me – that Harry was 
stupid before to want to try it, nothing more, really. IMO of course.


It also makes sense to me what Pippin said about Harry not practicing 
enough this year, but since the reason IMO he did not practice was 
investigating Malfoy misdeeds, it is still comes back to Malfoy as 
the main reason of his own misery  in the ironic way IMO.



> Magpie:
> All we know about any lessons from Bellatrix is that she's been 
> teaching Draco Occlumency. I don't think you can use that as proof 
> that Draco has become a master at Crucio.  Harry takes pleasure 
from 
> other peoples' pain too. He does it a particular lot in OotP, yet 
> still can't sustain a Crucio, because there is an established 
> difference between his impulse and Bellatrix's more advanced 
> sadism.  Ironically Draco often seems to me depicted as more 
> squeamish than Harry, not less.

Alla:

I am not sure we can **prove** too many things in canon with absolute 
certainty as to certain characters especially.

Do I think that Bella, who is a Crucio expert could have taught Draco 
that as well? Sure, it is just speculating, but Bella dreams of 
sacrificing her sons for the cause, why not start preparing Draco?

The fact that not anybody else, but Crucio expert was teaching him 
IMO makes this speculation plausible enough.

Oh, and of course I do see that Draco has a potential to be a great 
sadist in canon. All I have to do is to reread his role in Buckbeak 
story. He seemed very pleased to me of Hagrid situation and when he 
learned that innocent animal is going to be executed.


  
> Magpie:
> I don't think he's forgotten that he didn't consider Draco's threat 
> to kill him realistic.  He does think (correctly) that Draco is 
> behind the long-distance murder attempts but I don't recall any 
> hints that Draco has become personally frightening to Harry in this 
> way. The stakes are raised in this fight, and that's clear, but I 
> think if I'm supposed to think that Harry thought he barely got out 
> with his life in the way you describe it would be there in the text 
> instead of what is there, which is, "And then he was going to hit 
me 
> with a Crucio, so I zapped him!"  

Alla:

Um, that is the possible reaction, but that is not the only reaction 
Harry can have if he felt threatened by Draco. He already learned 
that Draco is capable of hurting him, he knows that Draco promised 
revenge, etc.

As I said I do not see the fact that Harry feels twinges of 
conscience as proof that he was not threatened for his life and 
sanity.

IMO of course.