ESE, DDM, OFH, or Grey? (WAS: DDM!Snape the definition)

[Sydney]

No: HPFGUIDX 162522


> Sydney:
> > I still don't think we see any indecision *scenes* with Snape, as
> > you would sort of need to establish him as a weak and indecisive
> > character.  So far he's been Mr. Snap-Judgement Action Man Who
> > Won't Change His Mind About Anything Without Being Dragged Kicking
> > and Screaming.  With only one book left it seems a little late in
> > the game to introduce this vital new facet to his character.


Jen: The twitch?  The fight in the forest?  The pause while 
> Dumbledore pleads?  I know DDM explains these things a certain way 
> but they don't have to be explained that way, JKR could have another 
> explanation called wavering <g>.


Sydney:

Is there a OFH!Snape explanation for the fight in the forest?  Is
Snape actually arguing with Dumbledore about what side he's on? 
Wouldn't he be hiding this?  And why is Dumbledore still saying he
trusts him completely in that case?  If anyone could come up with an
OFH! or Grey! storyline that would explain the twitch, the argument,
and most, most, most importantly Dumbledore's pleading with Snape the
second he comes on the scene, I'd be happy to entertain it.  DDM!Snape
takes those three sole instances of hesitation and relates them
seamelessly to one thing, the killing of Dumbledore. Snape is willing
to go all the way to defeat Voldemort but balks at killing Dumbledore
as he is, after all, Dumbledore's Man. Dumbledore is perfectly aware
of this and they had a frank argument about it;  and it's still up in
the air how far Snape is willing to go when he gets to the top of the
tower.  

I actually don't think Snape was wavering even then, because, as I've
said, I don't think 'wavering' could apply to Snape as a person.  He
got hit with the third clause of the Vow.  He discusses it with
Dumbledore.  They agree Snape will go ahead and kill him
(Horcrux!Dumbledore, maybe?).  Snape then at some point (I'll have to
reread the book and see if I can find a catalyst), decides he will
absolutely not do it, consistent with the argument in the forest,
where he says, "I don't want to do it anymore" and there's a screaming
fight, not an 'uh, I've been thinking and I'm not sure' and a
back-and-forthing.  If Dumbledore is having a 'heated' argument I
don't think he's berating an unsure guy, I think it's an actual
up-front conflict.

I think breaking the Vow was Snape's firm decision until he was faced
with the very particular set of circumstances so fiendishly arranged
by the DADA Curse/JKR:  the magic barrier, the frozen Harry, the DEs,
the Poison, the Vow.  

If JKR wanted to give Grey!Snape a choice on the tower, I don't think
she would have arranged that one-- one where Draco's and Harry's lives
are in the balance as well.  That looks a heck of a lot more like a
cruel choice for DDM!Snape-- heroic death but nothing accomplished,
vs. being once again the villain of the piece but one step closer to
the ultimate goal of defeating Voldemort.  If I were setting up a
dramatic choice for Grey!Snape, I'd feature among other things
actually seeing Dumbledore realizing that he's been betrayed!  And
Snape realizing that Dumbledore's realized it.  And some dramatic,
onscreen wavering.  And Harry understanding completely every single
thing that was going on (why would wavering!Snape be kept under wraps,
storywise?).  No way in hell would JKR throw way the big Betrayal
Scene.   Not a run in, a plead, a pause, a look, and an AK, all of
which is thoroughly ambigous and hidden and unclear, showing 10
factors of instant decisive action and Snape/D-dore mutual
comprehension to one factor of pause.  

And why would any brand of wavering, indecisive, keeping his options
open Snape take an Unbreakable Vow when no one's holding a gun to his
head?  That's just now the way you would paint such a character.  A
'keep our options open' character would look at an Unbreakable vow and
laugh and then go, 'look a pony!' and then run out the back door.

Jen:

>Instead he will work alone, one man traveling light with
>his Occlumency....
>And lo and behold, who should arrive on 
> his doorstep but a beautiful sobbing lady in need of a Prince to save 
> the day?  Combine that with the grinding months of practicing 
> Occlumency, being surrounded by reminders of his old life, and 
> Dumbledore arriving half-dead in need of patching up (how much 
> Occlumency does *that* take to hide) and suddenly life as a spy is 
> not exactly how he imagined it.  

Sydney:  

But where does the beautiful sobbing lady intersect with the guy
travelling light and keeping himself out of trouble?  Wouldn't he be,
like, "I stick my neck out for no one, lady'?  I just don't see
'keeping himself out of trouble' Snape *anywhere*.  He's 'Sticking his
Big Nose into Trouble at Every Available Opportunity' Snape.  He's
'following people around, joining terrorist groups, becoming double
agent, personally undertaking to stop Quirrel, roaming the grounds to
find Harry, running off to corner werewolf and mass-murderer, taking
Unbreakable Vows to interfere with voldemort's plans' Snape. He's this
Snape in a little scene in OoP:

"Harry could hear a muffled commotion coming from what he thought
might be the Entrance Hall. Snape looked round at him, frowning.

'Did you see anything unusual on your way down here, Potter?'

Harry shook his head. Somewhere above them, the woman screamed again.
Snape strode to his office door, his wand still held at the ready, and
swept out of sight. Harry hesitated for a moment, then followed." (OoP
chapter 25)

This is what I'm talking about by how JKR builds a character though
having them behave consistently in even their smallest throwaway
shots.  Somewhere there's a problem, and Snape is *all over it*,
striding off with wand drawn.  Even Harry gets a 'hesitates'.  If JKR
wanted to paint Wavering Snape, indecisive Snape,
holding-off-before-commiting Snape, she would have scenes where thing
hit the fan and we see Snape *hanging back* before making a decision.
 But she always grabs a little chance to show Snape being the first to
leap in to sort things out.  

I took Bellatrix's "slithering out of action" line and asked, "uh,
when has Snape ever slithered out of action from our end of the books?
 Never.  Ergo, Snape only slithers out of DE action."  I mean, even
Sirius acknowledges that Snape is "out there risking his life".


Jen:

> So yes, *that* Snape I see wavering regardless of how forceful his 
> actions prior or how tight his control.  He is starting to slip and 
> that potential loss of control terrifies and enrages him, the thought 
> he could ever be 'weak' again. 

Sydney:

But... I mean, Snape isn't terrified and enraged.  We've *seen* Snape
enraged, and you could hear him in China.  In the Vow scene he's cool
as the proverbial cucumber.  Throughout all of HBP, in fact, I thought
he seemed unusually calm and focused-- IMO because he'd made the
decision to check out in every way at the end of the year.  If JKR
wanted to set up a wavering guy, where is the wavering?  Where?  It's
not like she's the subtlest writer in the planet.  If she was painting
a wavering character he would waver for England.  He'd waver like
Hagrid drinks and bursts into tears.  He wouldn't be enimagic
proactive and decisive ("Of course I'll take the Unbreakable Vow"-- he
pauses for what, two seconds?), but somehow wavering in some invisible
fashion at the same time.


> Jen: I see young Snape as similar to Draco in the way he was drawn 
> into the world of Voldemort though I don't think he believed like 
> Draco believes, likely he was disillusioned with the alternatives 
> more than anything else!

Sydney:

OMG, that's not how I see young!Snape at all!  I think for one thing
Snape was waaaaay more f'd up than Draco when he was young;  Draco
after all has loving, if evil, parents and a perfectly healthy social
life, and if he gets out the other end of this he'll be an fine,
unproductive member of society.  I think Snape on the other hand was a
scary, scary, violent young hoodlum at one point, who seriously wanted
to bring on some pain.  Snape is all about the passionate commitment.
 If he's going to join a racist terrorist organization it's not going
to be because it sort of seemed like an okay way to pass the time. 
"People who wear their hearts on their sleeves and wallow in sad
memories stand no chance against his powers" after all.

Jen:

 His 
> loyalty to Dumbledore wasn't really tested until the point Voldemort 
> returns and by that point Snape is quite confident about his 
> abilities as we see during the Occlumency lessons.  

Sydney: 

But... but... are we just ditching the whole "great personal risk"
thing when Voldemort was at the height of his powers and everyone
thought he would win and Snape's amazing remorse and trust of
Dumbledore built on rock-like foundations?  I mean, of course we can
just say, 'for the sake of Grey!Snape we're going to sacrifice this
because it doesn't fit', but personally I like all the canon I get on
my side.


> > Debbie, realizing that she appears to have almost talked herself
> > into DDM!Snape
> 
> Jen, hoping Debbie won't hop into the other camp just yet <g>.

---Sydney, wafting the scent of yummy smores over from the DDM!Snape
camp.<g>