ESE, DDM, OFH, or Grey? (WAS: DDM!Snape the definition)

[wynnleaf]

No: HPFGUIDX 162646


> > wynnleaf
> > You speak as though the choice to "save Harry and Draco and get the
> > DE's out of Hogwarts" was something within Snape's grasp, and did 
> not
> > need to include Dumbledore's death. 
> <SNIP>
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I have more respect of Snape's fighting abilities.

wynnleaf
Your respect notwithstanding, where's the canon evidence?  I did not
see that you produced an ounce of it.  So he could win against Harry
or Lockhart in one-on-one combat.  Where's the evidence he had a *good
chance* of winning against 4 death eaters, while protecting teens at
the same time?

And remember, the ESE!Snape or OFH!Snape theories require that
Dumbledore think there's a good chance he'll win, too, otherwise
Dumbledore's "Severus please... (anything other than 'AK me')" is
asking Snape to seriously risk Harry and Draco's lives.

> wynnleaf:
>  But there was no way to remove
> > Harry and Draco without highly significant risk of death *unless* 
> he
> > AK'd Dumbledore first and allowed the DE's to think he was on their
> > side.  The alternative was a fire-fight of spells on the tower 
> while
> > Harry was completely vulnerable and Draco -- well, we don't even 
> know
> > which side Draco might have fired on, if any. 
> <SNIP>
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Oh, I don't know. It seems as Neri argued earlier that Snape is 
> alone on the tower because he chose to be so. He does not call for 
> help, he does not deal with barrier, etc, etc. So if Snape is good 
> and he chose to arrive alone and we assume that there was no master 
> plan, I would say that yeah, he is probably able of dealing with 
> several DE IMO.

wynnleaf
Surely it did not escape your notice that Snape is not alone on the
tower?  

As regards the barrier -- do we have *any* canon evidence that Snape
knew how to take it down?  Any? Lupin (supposedly a DADA expert)
couldn't take it down.  Neither could McGonagall.  So where's the
evidence that Snape knew how?  

The notion that Snape intentionally went to the tower alone with
either an intent to kill Dumbledore or expecting to *possibly* kill DD
for ulterior purposes (other than DD's orders) presupposes that Snape
knew Dumbledore was up there.  But where's the evidence of that?  It
fits if Snape and DD planned or expected to be on the tower, but not
if they neither expected it.
 
> wynnleaf:
>  And then Snape could
> > easily end up dead, alongside Dumbledore and Harry.  But hey, so 
> what?
> >  At least Snape wouldn't have killed Dumbledore!  Is that really 
> *all*
> > that mattered on the tower?  All the good guys as die, as long as
> > Snape doesn't AK Dumbledore, it was a good decision? <SNIP>
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Snape or Dumbledore? Not difficult choice for me. 

wynnleaf
You missed my point.  If Snape chose to fight the DE's, then Snape,
Dumbledore, and Harry -- as well as possibly Draco -- would most
likely die.  That's the choice -- DD,Harry,Snape,maybe Draco OR just DD.

Oh yeah, with no canon evidence, you think that Snape had a good
chance of winning against 4 death eaters while protecting Harry and
Draco and Dumbledore (the object was to keep him alive, right?).  

Oh, and one more thing -- the Not To Be Forgotten Vow.  All of this
*also* presupposes that Snape won't die an immediate death if he
doesn't fulfill the Vow.  So not only does he have to be
SuperDuellist!Snape (no canon evidence remember), we also have to
assume that the Vow will leave him alive to have time to take down all
those Death Eaters.  And you're also assuming that Dumbledore expects
Snape to be able to stay alive long enough to do so as well.

Alla
Snape would have 
> brought all of that upon himself IMO by taking the UV in the first 
> place.

wynnleaf
Possibly.  But once on the tower, that's no longer the question.  The
question is what did Dumbledore want him to do about it up there on
the tower.  

Alla 
> As to Harry and Draco, well if Snape is that concerned with their 
> wellfare and he came to tower alone, as I said above I am guessing 
> that he had some confidence in his abilities.

wynnleaf
How do you know he could have brought help with him???  

But if he couldn't have brought help with him, does that mean he
should simply not have gone at all?  Perhaps he should have thought,
"Hm, I don't know who all is up there.  Maybe I can't handle them on
my own.  So I just shouldn't go up.  After all, if someone is up there
in trouble, they can take care of themselves."  

Oh, another big argument against your notion that Snape's not taking
anyone along means he was oh-so-confident of his own capabilities.  If
Snape thought he was going to find Dumbledore up on the tower -- we
have no canon evidence that he would have expected anything less than
a Dumbledore fully capable of fighting just as powerfully as he did at
 the end of OOTP.  Unless Snape was working *closely* with Dumbledore
and *knew* he was likely to be drinking those cave liquids that night,
Snape should have expected Dumbledore to be quite capable of defending
himself. 

wynnleaf