The Cabinet Plan...again (was:Re: The UV (was ESE, DDM, OFH, or Grey?)

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 162849

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > So a_svirn is taking the position (as far as I could tell) that 
> > while Draco is not a killer (as per Dumbledore) Draco *is* a     
> > murderer.  And (from what I understand) that Dumbledore agrees    
> > with that assessment and is engaging in linguistical games in    
> > order to trick Draco into lowering his wand.

> >>a_svirn:
> Well, it's either that, or Dumbledore is lying. Because Draco did 
> attempt murder. And it is possible to be a murderer without doing 
> actual killing, you know. If I hired you to kill a noisy neighbour 
> of mine, I'd be guilty of murder even if you were the one who did  
> actual work.

Betsy Hp:
If someone actually died, yes of course.  Just as, if we accept that 
Draco is indeed a murderer (in his heart, I guess?) then so is 
Dumbledore, since he knowingly and willingly allowed an assassin into 
his school.  And while this does make for an interesting legal and 
philosophical discussion, I just don't think this is where JKR wants 
her readers to go.

In trying to interpert Draco's story, and in trying to anticipate 
where it's going to go in book 7, I feel I should keep the author's 
intent in mind.  I seriously doubt JKR wants us to see Dumbledore as 
a liar or a manipulator on the order you're suggesting. So I think 
any attempt to understand either character (Dumbledore or Draco) 
based on that thought is going to fail.

> >>zgirnius:
> > I'm not sure that he is therefore necessarily feeling very guilty,
> > though. Here we can agree. In some ways that is a separate issue.
> > Sirius Black comes to mind. We are to believe he did not intend to
> > kill Snape, in the prank. But he certainly seems to feel little or
> > no guilt about the whole thing, ever, even after it has been
> > pointed out to him that he might have, if he hadn't been
> > lucky/possessed of a friend like James. Presumably because noone
> > was irreparably harmed, after all.

> >>SSSusan:
> For those who do think Draco is manifesting massive feelings of
> guilt (with a shout-out to Betsy, of course, but to anyone really!),
> here's a question that would help me think about this further: The
> guilt you perceive or suspect in Draco, do you think is it over what
> happened/almost happened to Katie & Ron, or over what he
> tried/almost did do to DD?

Betsy Hp:
I think Draco experienced negative feeling over Katie's near death 
large enough for Harry to notice.  Because of Katie, I think he saw 
much clearly than Sirius ever did (going by Sirius's own words -- 
though Sirius was as good at fronting as Draco is) what it is to be a 
murderer.  And he didn't like it.

So yeah, I think the negative reaction to Katie's near death is what 
starts Draco's Tower breakdown in motion.  By Slughorn's Christmas 
party Draco is already showing a large amount of stress.  And we also 
know that he's stopped launching any "death from afar" schemes by 
this time as well.

I do think Draco's guilt is complicated by his upbringing.  He reacts 
badly to something that shouldn't be a big deal to a junior Death 
Eater.  So there's also that guilt eating at him.  Which is why I 
described it as massive a few posts back. <g>  I do think Draco is 
fighting against his negative reactions, though.  Like Hamlet, I 
think Draco is driven by a sense of duty into trying to be something 
he is not. 

> >>Magpie:
> > But Dumbledore was, imo, speaking spiritually. Dumbledore's not
> > warning him about Voldemort in the scene. I think that reading   
> > reduces the concept of mercy for Dumbledore--he's just using it   
> > like Draco is using it or like a DE would use it. He's just      
> > another tough guy. I think Dumbledore is using mercy in a far    
> > more important sense (some would say a Christian sense). He's
> > offering mercy to his murderer. That's what Draco's accepting, not
> > just protection from Voldemort. 
> > <snip>

> >>a_svirn:
> I feel increasingly like Shylock now, because I just don't get this
> Christian Mercy bit. What do you think Dumbledore is offering Draco
> then? Absolution? It's not his to offer, even from Christian point 
> of view. He could and did offer forgiveness, but that's not the same
> thing as mercy. To offer mercy you'd need to be in a position to do
> so. Rowling tells us that Dumbledore is no Christ, so he couldn't
> offer Draco salvation by atoning vicariously for his sins. Besides,
> what sins? He just called Draco an innocent a few moments ago.

Betsy Hp:
I don't think Dumbledore is supposed to literally be Christ in the 
Tower scene, but I think there are recognizable echoes.  A layering 
if you will.  The mercy Dumbledore offers is a chance for Draco to 
realize his own true nature.  And Dumbledore *can* offer that.  He's 
the only person in a position to atually offer Draco the opportunity.

And really, that's been Dumbledore's entire mantra from the get go.  
Allow people the freedom to make the choices that show them who they 
are.  Draco has never been allowed that choice.  Dumbledore (in his 
mercy) is giving him that chance now.  Dumbledore doesn't *make* 
Draco lower his wand.  But he does allow Draco the chance to choose 
to do so.

But yeah, Dumbledore is neither cleansing Draco nor taking on Draco's 
own sins.  (Though I do think that by calling Draco an innocent he's 
allowing Draco to maybe forgive himself or something like that.) 

Betsy Hp