Harry Forgiving Snape / Grey!Snape and Character Growth

[quick_silver71]

No: HPFGUIDX 162948

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" 
<susiequsie23 at ...> wrote:
<snip>
> SSSusan:
<snip>
> I just mean that, to me, the DDM! label speaks to the loyalty 
issue, 
> end stop.  It doesn't necessarily speak, even, to what KIND of 
> loyalty -- is it to DD the man? to the Order? to whoever is 
fighting 
> the fight against Voldemort? to anyone who'll be fighting Evil 
> Overlords 'til the end of time?  To me, all that is "known" is 
that 
> it's just that Snape is loyal to DD to the extent that he is 
helping 
> him in the fight against Voldemort.  And it certainly doesn't 
speak 
> to emotions inside of Snape in my view.

Quick_Silver:
Exactly!! This is what
intrigues
me about the whole debate over the 
nature of a Snape that's Dumbledore's Man. Especially the concept of 
what exactly he's loyal too
is it simply to Dumbledore, the "good" 
side, or his own sense of morality.

I guess this comes down to how you interrupt certain concepts within 
the books. The flavor of DDM!Snape that seems most prevalent (here) 
seems to be based (loosely) around Dumbledore's continuing support 
of Snape throughout HBP with his statements to Harry that he trusts 
Snape. And to me, based on my reading of those passages, those 
statements by Dumbledore are actually part of the problem in the 
broader Harry Snape relationship. To be blunt I cringe (well almost

I'm not that emotional) when I read them because Dumbledore seems to 
be trying to have his cake and eat it too. He wants Harry to accept 
Snape on his word but at the same time his training of Harry has 
made Harry very independent (especially in regards to authority 
figures).  I think this same problem exists to a smaller extent 
among the other Order members and Snape which explains why they were 
so quick to turn on Snape. I guess the point I'm trying to make is 
that when Dumbledore says something about Snape it comes across to 
me as Dumbledore interfering in something that needs to be allowed 
to work itself. Case in point: Harry's little jaunts into Snape's 
memories during their Occulumency lessons (once during the lesson 
and once with the Pensieve). Those incidents affect Harry on a 
several levels (especially the Pensieve dive) and they seem to 
affect his view of Snape more then Dumbledore saying that he trusts 
Snape (which has little effect on Harry).

So I see the "redemption" of Snape (in Harry's eyes) as being 
foreshadowed in the "redemption" of Draco (if you will). And the 
redemption of Draco (again in Harry's eyes) was a very "no 
Dumbledore" experience
there was no Dumbledore saying that Draco was 
not a killer to Harry or that Harry should trust in Draco's 
goodness. Harry follows Malfoy, he secretly observes Malfoy, he 
interacts with Malfoy (the bathroom duel) and he observes the final 
meeting of Draco and Dumbledore on the Tower (unless the whole thing 
was staged). 

And that's where I get really intrigued because Harry seems to make 
a fair assessment of Draco after the Tower scene, i.e. realizing 
that he's not a killer, and he did it in an environment that was 
relatively free from other people's assessments of Draco. So to me 
the whole set-up of DDM!Snape is
suspect
because Dumbledore 
constantly seems to be pushing this one assessment of Snape onto 
Harry without evidence (it's the inverse of Lupin saying Harry 
inherited James's prejudice about Snape). 

On a fundamental level then I see the Dumbledore/Snape relationship 
and by extension the loyalty at the core of DDM!Snape as being more 
a barrier to Harry understanding Snape then a benefit (indeed I 
think Harry should ignore what Dumbledore said Snape and have his 
own relationship with the Snape). I don't think it's a deliberate 
failing on anyone's part but rather something inherent within the 
people involved and the circumstances. I don't want to dismiss 
Snape's loyalty to Dumbledore (which is huge) but rather I think 
it's something that can only really be understand once the entire 
context of Snape is understood so at this time Harry can't grasp it 
and what's more the killing of Dumbledore by Snape created a "false" 
trail if you will then may hamper Harry's understanding.

Quick_Silver (acknowledging this as a very Harry-centric post)