Practicing Legilimency against an Occlumens

[Jen Reese]

No: HPFGUIDX 163339

> bboyminn: 
> On this issue I have to agree with Carol. There is a very
> real difference between the art of Legilimency and the
> spell of Legilimency. The art or skill is very subtle, 
> and I suspect from the examples in the books, the subject
> barely knows that it is happening.  However, when Snape casts the
> Legilimency Spell, it is not subtle at all. 

Jen:  The structure of the story matters here, JKR has Snape explain 
Legilimency and Occlumency and then demonstrate with Harry so the 
reader can later say, "Oh, I know what Dumbledore is doing when he 
mentions using Legilimency on Kreacher, that's like what Snape was 
doing to Harry during his lessons." (Or substitute another example 
here.)  In fact, the lessons give us much more information about how 
Legilimency works than Occlumency since Harry can't perform the 
latter skill very well.  JKR has never proposed there is real 
Legilimency and teaching Legilimency;  Snape's explantion and first-
hand example are the basis for understanding Legilimency during the 
rest of the story.

Also, such a distinction assumes Snape's lessons look exactly like a 
lesson Dumbledore or Lupin would teach.  Perhaps another teacher 
wouldn't call forth entire streams of humiliating and/or bad memories 
in order to teach Harry, maybe they would access memories one at a 
time (as Snape did in the bathroom) in order to teach Harry bit by 
bit how to block them.  We don't know yet if Snape seeing so many of 
Harry's memories serves another purpose for the story.  I think it's 
very possible plot is the reason Snape accesses so many memories and 
it has nothing to do with the process of teaching Legilimency vs. 
practicing Legilimency.

Steve:
> Harry is completely lost in his memories. Snape and Snape's office
> completely disappear.  We don't see the completely loss of 
> immediate awareness when the subtle skill of Legilimency is 
> practiced. 

Jen: The bathroom scene is the other opportunity to understand how 
Legilimency feels to the person experiencing the process: "The 
bathroom seemed to shimmer before his eyes; he struggled to block out 
all thought, but try as he might, the Half-Blood Prince's copy 
of 'Advanced Potion-Making' swam hazily to the forefront of his 
mind...And then he was staring at Snape again in the midst of the 
wrecked, soaked bathroom."  (Sectumsempra chap. HBP)

Harry sees the copy of the book in his mind's eye and then 'he was 
staring at Snape again, in the midst of the wrecked, soaked 
bathroom', so for a moment Harry is not in the bathroom, he loses 
awareness of where he is and then his surroundings come into focus 
again.  Yes, there is only one memory taking over but no, the 
experience does not feel any different from the lessons.

bboyminn:
<snip>
> Consequently, I don't think Snape has to block each and
> every positive thought he has. I think he mearly has to
> block the details of his true allegiance, plus a few
> details of specific information that Dumbledore doesn't 
> want Voldemort to have just yet.

Jen:  I believe the same as you and Carol, that Snape only needs to 
block details of his allegiance.  My point was if Snape holds views 
widely divergent from Voldemort's, say if he is secretly opposed to 
the principles of pure-blood ideaology or believes in House-
Elf/Werewolf/Goblin rights or dreams of a WW free from the oppression 
of tyranny, *those* are not just single thoughts or memories but wide-
ranging concepts that impact a person on a daily basis.  

There is less risk on Dumbledore's part to employ a double-agent who 
is *not* like Dumbledore in ideaology, outlook or values but rather 
can resemble a DE in thought and feeling enough to pass muster with 
Voldemort.  IOW, Dumbledore trusts Snape completely because he knows 
exactly who Snape is, Snape would not be a lesser man in Dumbledore's 
eyes if he holds different values than Dumbledore.  More important is 
whether Dumbledore will risk his plan to send Snape to spy on 
Voldemort.

Pippin: 
> Oh, of course Voldemort knows that Snape is an occlumens. It would
> be folly to send anyone to spy on Dumbledore who wasn't. But 
> Voldemort doesn't think that any occlumens is good enough to fool
> *him*.

Jen:  The question was whether LV knows Snape is using Occlumency 
around him, not Dumbledore.  Carol said LV probably doesn't detect 
Snape using Occlumency when they are together.  I said maybe 
Voldemort doesn't or maybe he does but needs to use Snape a little 
longer so hasn't blown Snape's secret yet.  

You seem to be saying Voldemort knows Snape is using Occlumency in 
his presence but doesn't care because no one can fool him.  I'm not 
so sure Voldemort would think it's fine for DE's to lie and practice 
Occlumency around him without pointing out he knows what they are 
doing and punishing them, as well as expect they won't try doing 
those things again without harsher punishment.