ESE! Snape or not (Was: Re: Cheating)

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 146337

Amanda wrote:
> >    
> >   IMO: I do not think that Snape is ESE. Of all the wizards, DD is
the one whose word I would trust the most. I believe he would take
care in taking an 'ex-Death Eater' under his wing. If SS used
occlumency, DD would know. DD can tell when a memory has been 
modified/etc. In addition, in every book, we see SS coming to the aid
of Harry/DD. 

Carol responds:
Although I'm not sure about the modified memory portion of your
statement (after all, the memory Slughorn gave DD to put in the
Pensieve was a deliberate but sloppy patch job, whereas Snape
appaarently uses unaltered memories that support his story to conceal
any memories or emotions that would reveal a lie), I agree with your
overall position that Snape is DDM!, that DD was right to trust him,
and that he has helped DD or Harry in every book. Like Alla, though,
I'm not sure that the examples you've chosen are the best possible
support for this position. And as she points out, there's more than a
bit of movie contamination in your PoA example. (See, Alla? I
understand where you're coming from, even though I'm *not* looking
forward to ESE!Snape and can't understand why anyone would *want him
to be evil.)
> 
Alla wrote:
<snip> At least half of [Amanda's] examples could be interpreted as 
evidence for OFH!Snape too. 

Carol responds:
This point I reluctantly concede. There's no question that JKR has
presented Snape ambiguously throughout the series, even in HBP. I
can't imagine him being ESE! if ESE! means loyal to Voldemort
(Voldie's man through and through), but OFH!Snape is a real
possibility (though I prefer DDM!).
> 
> Amanda:    
> >   1. SS/PS - Countercurse on Quirrell's magic on HP during the 
> game. Helping DD protect the stone with potions obstacle.

> Alla:
> If Snape indeed values Dumbledore protection and does not want to go
to Azkaban, it seems perfectly reasonable to me that it makes no sense
to him to kill Harry right under Dumbledore nose OR despite Snape's
allegiances, Life Debt Magic came into place <snip> and Snape felt
compelled to get rid of the debt to James by saving Harry. In that
scenario Snape can be good or evil and still wanting to get rid of the
Debt in any event, IMO.

Carol responds:
There's a difference between letting Harry from a fall (not protecting
him by using the countercurse) and actually killing him, as Quirrell
was trying to do. But for whatever reason, Snape did save Harry from
falling, keeping him in the air and holding onto his broom until
Hermione broke both his and Quirrell's eye contact and concentration.
That he did so may or may not be attributable to the life debt (which
may or may not have been paid). But Snape could have done what every
other teacher present did--watch in (real or feigned) horror as Harry
struggled with the hexed broom. Snape alone knew who was hexing the
broom and took action to thwart him. As Quirrell himself says near the
end of the book, Snape did indeed dislike Harry, but he didn't want
him to die. The reason could be simply a desire to pay off the life
debt, but it could also be his knowledge of the first part of the
Prophecy. Harry is "the One" and Snape, if he's DDM! (or
anti-Voldemort for any reason) needs him to be alive.

Snape also attempted to keep the "unworthy" Quirrell away from the
Stone and was injured in the process. Just supplying the potions,
riddle, and curtains of fire to guard the Stone is not in itself
evidence of loyalty to Dumbledore; even Quirrell contributed to the
Stone's protection (or pretended to) by supplying a troll, but Snape
anticipated Quirrell's move on Halloween and prevented him from using
the troll diversion to go after the stone. Later he questions "where
[Quirrell's] loyalties lie." The implication of these words is that,
contrary to what he told Bella (and presumably LV), he knew or
suspected that Quirrell was loyal to LV whereas he, Snape, was loyal
to Dumbledore. I don't think Snape would have used these words if he
thought Quirrell was after the Stone for himself. And since we now
know that Snape is a Legilimens, he may even have known that LV was in
Quirrell's head. But being a superb Occlumens, he could later convince
LV that he thought it was only "unworthy Quirrell" (who had the
teaching post Snape wanted) who was after the Stone.
> 
> Amanda:
> >   2. CoS - HP used SS's potions for making 'polyjuice' potion.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> They used ingredients, not potions, no? And I don't remember Snape 
> WILLINGLY giving them those ingredients. :-)

Carol responds:
True, Alla. This is an instance of Hermione listening in Potions class
and knowing what the potion does and where to find it in the library.
I don't think Snape deliberately mentioned it so that HRH would steal
Potions ingredients from his supply cupboard to spy on Draco. But he
*did* teach the entire duelling club the Expelliarmus spell, enabling
Harry to use it later against Lockhart in this book and Voldemort in
GoF, among numerous other instances. (IMO, this is a case of Snape
showing Lockhart and the students what a real DADA teacher should do,
but Lockhart is hopeless.) At any rate, Expelliarmus, like the bezoar
Snape mentions in SS/PS, proves valuable to Harry. Snape also points
out to Lockhart that the time to show his expertise has come, setting
up the opportunity for Harry and Ron to go to Lockhart for help and
enter the Chamber themselves. Granted, he didn't do it deliberately,
but I doubt they would have gone to rescue Ginny if they hadn't
overheard this conversation. (BTW, Snape's knuckles whitening as he
grasps the back of his chair is evidence of his concern for Ginny.)
> 
> Amanda:
> >   3. PoA - Standing in front of HP/RW/HG putting himself at risk
of werewolf!Lupin. I have always found it interesting how SS just 
> happened to be in the area HP was in to catch him wondering the HUGE 
> castle at night, Lupin right behind him
> 
> Alla:
> > But that is in  the movie, not in the book.

Carol:
Alla's right. What really happens is that Lupin sees Sirius pulling
Ron and Pettigrew on the Marauder's Map and rushes off without his
Wolfsbane Potion. Snape is bringing the potion, sees Lupin on the map
running along the tunnel (which Ron tells us in GoF shows only the
grounds, not Hogsmeade--I can find the quote for you if you want it,
Alla) to the Shrieking Shack. So what Snape runs off to do is to catch
the werewolf and the "murderer." When he finds Harry's invisibility
cloak at the entrance to the tunnel, he knows that Harry is there,
too. IMO, he sees this as yet another opportunity to save Harry and
maybe get some recognition as a hero. Things don't work out quite as
planned, but at least he gets to conjure up stretchers and take HRH
and Sirius back to the castle before the Dementors or the werewolf
returns. He also tries unsccessfully to keep Harry out of Hogsmeade,
and therefore safe both from Dementors and the "murderer," throughout
the book.
> 
> Amanda:
> >   4. GoF - Was right beside DD and ready for helping when HP was 
> with Moody!Crouch Jr. with truth potion ready.
> 
> Alla: 
> Because Dumbledore ordered him too? Don't get me wrong,Snape showing
Fudge the Dark Mark could be the evidence for Good!Snape and that is
what I used to think too, but it also can mean nothing IMO.

Carol responds:
I don't think we can say that showing Fudge the Dark Mark meant
nothing. It was proof that he had been a Death Eater, and to show it
to Fudge as proof that Voldemort has indeed returned was an act of
remarkable courage. Taken along with his appearance in the Foe Glass
along with DD and McG and with his going off at the end of the book to
face Voldemort as he and DD have clearly planned ("If you are ready,
if you are prepared") is IMO, our best evidence that Snape is indeed
DDM! And, yes, he did help to thwart and expose Fake!Moody at the end
of the book (possibly casting a Stunning spell along with DD to break
the door down), fetching and (IIRC) administering the Veritaserum, and
fetching Winky (such a dignified job for our Severus!), so Amanda is
right that he helps to save Harry at the end of this book as well as
several others.

> 
> Amanda:
> >   5. OoP - Continually giving the Order information on LV.
> 
> Alla: 
> Isn't that interesting though that we don't know at all what
information Snape was giving to the Order on Voldemort in OOP? Unless
I forgot the canon references, if so could you please point me to it?

Carol responds:
Well, he gives a report that Harry and friends aren't allowed to hear
at 12 GP and the other Order members are excited about it both before
and after the meeting, so he must have showed them something
interesting, probably related to the building plan that Bill vanished
after the meeting. And also, of course, he told them that Harry
thought Sirius had been captured and later sent them to the MoM to
rescue him--pretty important information, I'd say, and definitely
helping to save Harry's and his friends' lives.

Alla:
> But if we believe Snape in Spinner's End <snip> he gave to Voldemort
information about the Order members which lead to their deaths and
<snip> there is NOTHING in canon as far as I can remember to even
suggest that anybody else can be guilty in the  murder of Eveline Vance.

Carol responds:
Snape does not claim to have killed her, which he certainly would have
done if he were the actual murderer trying to prove to Bella that he's
loyal to Voldemort. He only tells Bella, after carefully establishing
that LV is not on speaking terms with her, that he contributed
information leading to her death. Nothing in canon suggests that he
actually murdered her, and the bit about supplying information can
neither be proved or disproved at this point. You think it's the
truth, and that could be (we know that as a double agent, he has to
supply *some* useful information or risk being killed), but it's also
possible that the reference to Emmeline Vance is a lie that Bella is
in no position to disprove. At any rate, EV has nothing to do with
Amanda's argument that "Snape comes to the aid of Harry in every book."
> 
> 
> Amanda:
> >   6. HBP - Why would SS have an argument w/ DD at the edge of the
forbidden forest saying 'I want out'. I strongly believe that SS told
DD about the UV and did not want to have to go through with it and was
arguing with DD on what to do. He is continually trying to get
information from Draco as to what he is doing.
> 
> Alla:
> I don't have my HBP with me, but I thought Snape was saying that he
does not want to do it anymore. There are multiple possibilities IMO 
> what that was in reference too, including Snape not wanting to spy 
> anymore, not wanting to watch over Harry anymore, etc, etc.

Carol responds:
According to Hagrid, who gives only paraphrased snippets of a
partially overheard argument, Snape does tell DD that he doesn't want
to do something anymore and that DD takes too much for granted. DD
tells him that he promised to do it and that's that. I agree that this
conversation can be interpreted any number of ways (it probably
relates somehow to the Unbearable, I mean Unbreakable, Vow). I don't
think it can possibly relate to not wanting to watch *Harry* any more,
since Snape chooses to give him Saturday detentions for the rest of
the year after the Sectumsempra curse (Harry is right under his eye
and can't possibly get into trouble during these detentions). It
*could* have something to do with not wanting to watch *Draco* any
more. (Snape has already followed him around, put Crabbe and Goyle in
detention, and finally confronted Draco only to find him resentful,
suspicious, and uncooperative. IMO, Snape doesn't want to watch Draco
any more because he's afraid he'll find out what he's up to in the RoM
and be forced by the UV to help him.) But the argument in the forest
is probably the most ambiguous piece of evidence we have regarding
Snape's loyalties. The best that can be said is that if Snape were
trying to fool DD into thinking that he's loyal, he wouldn't openly
defy him and try to get out of a promise. He'd be much more cunning
and subtle, as Snape is quite capable of doing.

But to return to the point. Snape saves at least three lives (DD's,
Katie's and Draco's) in this book, and it's only thanks to his bezoar
lesson, reinforced by his old Potions book, that Harry is able to save
Ron. He also gets the DEs (and Draco) out of Hogwarts and saves harry
from a Crucio. True, there's that little matter of what happened on
the tower, but the evidence for DDM! Snape is also present throughout
the book. And DD's trust in Snape has reached a level almost of
dependency; he even becomes angry when Harry refuses to believe that
Snape is on their side. Clearly, Dumbledore knew something that Harry
doesn't and we don't, either. If only he were alive to tell us!
> 
> 
> Amanda:
> >   7. ??? - ***IMO***: SS and HP will have a run in, and HP will be 
> surprised at the outcome
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Possibly, or Harry will not be surprised at all. :-)
>
Carol:
Do you like chocolate frogs with your crow, Alla? ;-) (I think I'll
take fire whiskey with mine. I'll need it if Snape turns out to be
evil. I have a huge emotional and intellectual investment in him and I
don't want him to betray me.)

BTW, I have a question for everyone who uses the term ESE! Do we all
agree that it means "in league with Voldemort" (not necessarily on the
fanatical level of Bellatrix or Barty Jr., but still a Voldemort
supporter like Lucius Malfoy)? Or is someone (like Lucius Malfoy or
Peter Pettigrew) who has his own agenda for joining or allying
himself/herself with Voldemort considered to be OFH! Or do these terms
apply only to people whose loyalties are in question (chiefly Snape
and possibly Lupin)?

I wonder if some of the disagreements within the group are really just
a difference in how we're defining these terms. For me, ESE!Snape is
loyal to Voldemort and always has been (like Bellatrix or Barty Jr.),
and that just seems absurd. OFH!Snape would be loyal to one or the
other as long as there was something in it for him, but he would have
no emotional stake in his loyalty and would betray either one of them
if he could do so with impunity (rather like our dear friend, Peter
Pettigrew). That doesn't really fit him, either, because whether he
admits it to himself or not, Snape is a highly emotional man. He just
likes to control or conceal his emotions through Occlumency, or use
them if they're useful to him. But sometimes they slip out of his
control, at least when he's around Harry. I doubt that he slips up in
that way around Voldemort. DDM!Snape, though not a naturally good
person like, say, Cedric Diggory, is genuinely loyal to Dumbledore. He
may be angry and resentful on occasion, like a son with a father, but
he genuinely admires and respects Dumbledore, maybe even loves him.
And for DDM!Snape to be forced by circumstances he tried and failed to
control (the DADA curse, the UV, the presence of DEs on the Tower) to
kill Dumbledore is tragic and compelling in a way that ESE! or
OFH!Snape can't match. He also, to me, best fits the picture of the
clever and talented yet insecure and possibly tormented Snape we see
in the books, whose natural instincts are in conflict with his
self-chosen loyalty to Dumbledore.

Carol, hoping to be pleasantly surprised by (DDM!)Snape's survival in
Book 7