CHAPDISC: HBP8, Snape Victorious

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 146686

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sherry Gomes" <sherriola at e...>
wrote:
>
> CHAPTER DISCUSSIONS: Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince, Chapter 8,
> Snape Victorious
> 
> Summary:
> 
> ...edited...
> 
> H
> 
> 
> Discussion questions
> 
> 1. This is the first mention of nonverbal spells in the book,
> though it becomes important later as we know.  ...
> 

bboyminn:

This is the first mention of nonverbal spells but it's not the first
example. We have seen several nonverbal spells throught the series,
and it has been discussed in the past, so I always assumed it was
coming and wasn't at all surprised.


 
> 2.  Harry despises himself for wishing there would be the sound
> of panic, people wondering what had happened to him. ... Later 
> in the chapter, when he is at the Gryffindor table ..., he
> hopes the students will just assume he was off doing something 
> heroic.  

bboyminn:

I think this is a case of 'where is it when you need it'?

Harry has always hated his fame; the pointing and staring, and all the
 attention. But now the one time he could actually use his fame, the
one time that it could actually do him some good, it's not there. He
assumes no one is wondering or worrying where the famous Harry Potter
is. Of course, that is not true. It seems as if Tonks was at the train
station to guard him, and when he didn't get off the train, she went
to investigate. Of course, Harry doesn't think of that, he simply sees
it as being caught in an embarassing stituation by a friend.

As to his feeling expressed in the Great Hall, I think they are very
natural. No one wants the world to know that they did something
foolish and someone else, especially an enemy, got the better of them.
So once again, Harry is hoping his reputation will help him salvage
some dignity. Instead of being off acting the fool, Harry hopes every
will assume he was up to something brave. Any teen, given a choice
between seeming foolish and brave, will certainl choose brave every time.



> 3.  Here we see Tonks jump off a moving train.  All through the
> last book, OOTP, we are shown how clumsy Tonks is. ... What did
> you think of this? We learn later that Tonks has lost her 
> metamorphmagus ability.  Do you think her ability to change her 
> appearance could be part of why she is clumsy? 

bboyminn:

First, Tonks is clumsy but she is not a total 'spaze' (spastic). She
is able to walk, and talk, and hold down a job, and function like a
normal person. It's not like she is crippled by clumsiness. 

She is also an Auror, so while generally clumsy, she was able to get
through the apparently rigorous training to be an Auror. Again, she is
not clumsy to the point on non-functional.

I do like the idea as suggested here and expanded on by others, that
because Tonks is always changing form, much like a teenager, she never
become used to her body. Teenagers tend to be clumsy because their
body awareness and preception can't keep up with the rate of body
change, so they are never quite fully aware of where there hands and
feet are. 

Now that Tonks, is not morphing as often, her body has gotten used to
the size and shape she has assumed. Also, as others have pointed out,
I think to some extent her clumsiness is amplified by her over
enthusiastic personality. She is so quick and eager to act that her
body gets there before her brain, and she knocks things over. 


 
> 4.  Some have said that we didn't see enough of Harry grieving
> for Sirius. What do you think of this scene, with Harry's 
> thoughts about Tonks and his inability to talk to her about 
> Sirius? Does this show his grief to you?
> 

bboyminn:

I think to the extent that it is possible in fiction, JKR has created
very real-life characters and situations, and that is part of the
appeal of the books. In real-life there really aren't that many
dramatic heart-to-heart grief expressing discussion. Mostly, we just
stoically muddle through. 

However, I think we get a sense of Harry's inner feelings. To talk of
Sirius, to express his grief, brings up a pain he is not willing or
able to face; just like real-life. Our own thoughts are never as
painful as when they are expressed in words. When my father died, I
could muddle through just fine with my thoughts of him, but if we
began to talk about him and express fond feeling, the pain welled up
with an unbearable strength. I think this is what Harry is trying to
avoid, he knows if he verbalizes his feelings, he will have to face
that unbearable pain.

So, yes, just like real-life, I think Harry's avoidance of any
discussion of Sirius, reflects a deep and powerful pain lurking under
the surface.


> 5. ... Snape tells Tonks that Harry is 
> 
> "quite--ah--safe in my hands."  
> 
> Is there any implication in his words here, ...?  Or for Tonks?
> Just curious...
> 

bboyminn:

Snape is well aware of Harry's total dislike and even hatred of him,
and he takes great delight in rubbing it in. This is just Snape making
a miserable 'dig' at Harry feelings.

> 6.  Later in HBP, we learn that Tonks' patronus is now a wolf,...
> Why do you think Snape made these comments about her patronus?
> ... Why does he say that her patronus is weak?  What do you think 
> about the whole significance of the changing patronus?  
> ...

bboyminn:

Snape is just a big meanie. I don't think he cares one way or another
about Tonks, but he can't resist a chance to put down one of the
Marauders. While his intended slight was toward Remus, we see that
Tonks, already vulnerable from her unreturned love or Remus, is very
hurt by Snape's comment. It was a very mean and cruel thing to do, but
not entirely out of character for Snape.


> 7.  We've discussed Harry's hatred of Snape over Sirius death
> many times in the past, ... Harry believes that the reason Sirius
> rushed off to the ministry was because of Snape's taunts.  ...,
> why do you think Harry would .. believe that Sirius would only 
> rush off because he was taunted?  Does Harry have difficulty 
> believing that Sirius could have rushed to his rescue out of love 
> for him ...? Does Harry have a problem believing that people 
> could love him enough to risk their lives?
> 

bboyminn:

Excellent question. It has to be a very heavy cross for Harry to bear
to know that so many people willingly died to save him. In his quiet
alone moments I can't help but believe that Harry asks himself why?
Why are these people so willing to die for me? Why do this people
think that I, a mediocre student, just an ordinary guy, am worthy of
that sacrifice. And I can't help but believe that Harry doesn't see
himself as worthy. I'm sure he would gladly have died so that Sirius
and his parents could have had long happy lives. But, in a way, it is
that very sense of self-sacrifice that makes Harry worthy of dying
for. His very desire to sacrifice himself for others, makes him worthy
of being sacrificed for. 

Also, never having had affectionate affirmations of physical
(non-sexual) love in his life, I think Harry has a great deal of
difficulty think of other people as loving him. Liking him sure, but I
don't think he really is able to comprehend the depths of Ron,
Hermione's or Ginny's love for him. He doesn't have enought of a life
foundation or models for him to understand that depth and expression
of love. So, you are right, it would be difficult for Harry to think
that Sirius ran to the rescue simply because he loved Harry. Of
course, Sirius had his own more personal reason for rushing to the
rescue, but love of Harry was probably right at the top of the list.


> 8.... Did Snape see that Harry's face was covered in blood? ...
> ..., why didn't he comment ..., that something must have happened
> to Harry on the way? ... Were his snarky comments to Harry on the 
> walk up to the castle just the usual routine, ..., or does he still
> seriously hate him so much?
> 

bboyminn:

Snape can size up a situation very quickly. He sees that neither Harry
or Tonks are upset or concerned, so why should he be concerned? I
think his snarky comments are his usual Harry vitriol. He has never
treated Harry kindly or even politely, no reason to start now. As to
not allowing Harry to use the invisibility cloak, I think the was just
to humilate Harry. Any excuse to take Harry down a notch or two is
never missed.


> 9. Hermione tells Harry that Hagrid was only a few minutes late,
> yet Snape had said that Tonks' message to Hagrid couldn't reach
> him, because Hagrid was late, and that was why, he, Snape, had 
> taken the message instead.  Was this true?  
> 

bboyminn:

I addressed this one specific issue (nature of Patronus messenger) in
another section of this thread. In short, I don't think was know
enough about who Partronus Messengers act to make a judgement here.

Date:Tue Jan 17, 2006  2:07 pm 
Subject:Re: Patronus issues 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/146614


> 10.  Is there any significance to the fact that Trelawney is at
> the start of term feast?  
> 

bboyminn:

I think it is a case of Trelawny feeling like she better make her
presence more felt at Hogwarts, otherwise 'that nag' will probably
take over her job completely. So, it just Trelawny hedging her bets by
keeping a higher profile.


> 11.  Toward the end of this chapter, we have two different
> situations ... First ... with nearly Headless Nick, was this
> meant to be comic relief, or showing Ron's insensitivity? Later,
> as Harry tells Ron the story of what happened on the train, he 
> believes Ron shows his friendship by not laughing. Does this 
> show anything about Ron's character, or is this just normal for
> any kid his age?
>  

bboyminn:

Ron has never been very sensitive to anyone. Later in the story, he
makes insenstive remarks about Myrtle being dead too. So to some
extent, this is just Ron being Ron and Ron being a teenage boy. In the
context of the storyteller though, I think it is meant to show
contrast. For things Ron considers insignificant, like Nick being
dead, he is a typical teenage boy. But when it comes to Harry getting
attacked, he takes it very seriously.

Though Harry does have some reason to be concerned, especially after
Ron's insensitivety to Nick. It is not that uncommon for teen boys to
take great delight in the injury and pain of their friends. Micheal
Kelso (Aston Kritcher) of "That 70's Show" said bluntly and with great
humor that 'It's funny when friends get hurt'. And, I'm sure many
people did laugh at Harry getting himself into such a foolish
situation and getting himself hurt, although, it is clear that he is
not seriously hurt which makes is a little more OK to be funny.

> 12. Throughout the book, Harry asks about Dumbledore's hand, 
> and he is repeatedly told that he'll learn what happened later.
> He never does.  Will the exact details of what happened to the
> hand be important later, either in what Harry has to do or in 
> understanding what happened on the tower?
> 

bboyminn: 

Once again we have a case of Dumbledore not giving important
information because he doesn't feel the person has an immediate need
to know, and once again, it is to everyone's great detriment.

We did find out how Dumbledore injured his hand, he was breaking the
curse on and releasing the soul bit from the Ring Horcrux. That's nice
to know, but it doesn't help Harry. Harry will have to break curse and
he will have to release the soul bit from their Horcruses, and it
would have been very valuable information for him to know the details
of what Dumbledore did and how the injury occured. Harry will
certainly face similar injuries himself, and it would have helped
greatly if Dumbledore had made him aware of some of the pitfalls. 

By withholding details, Dumbledore has left Harry completely
unprepared to tackle the remaining Horcruxes. I can accept that
Dumbledore was busy and away from the castle frequently, but if he
really valued Harry and accepted the task Harry had ahead of him, he
would have taken a few seconds to talk to him, and would have set
someone else the task of bringing Harry up to speed on curse breaking
and Horcrux destroying. 

I'm not sure if Dumbledore's genius is so high that he assumes
everyone knows what he knows, or at least can find out. Could it be
that he operates on such a high level that he can comprehend the needs
 and level of function of other people. Or, is it simply a case of
Dumbledore keeping information to himself. He only tells people what
he thinks they need to know in the moment with no thought for what
they may need to know in the future. 

Either way, it irritates me to know end that the people supporting
Harry have left him so ill-prepared for the task ahead.


> 13. Here is one of my favorite parts in the book, for surprise 
> value, Dumbledore announcing Slughorn as Potions teacher. How 
> did you react when you read Dumbledore's announcement of Slughorn
> as potions master?  
> 

bboyminn:

I've been predicting a new potions teacher for many many months, so it
came as no surprise to me. I was firmly convinced that the time had
come for Snape to take over DADA, and for a new teacher to allow Harry
into NEWT potions. So, I guess I got one right, though we will ignore
all those brain waves I got wrong.


> 14. I have racked my brains and can't remember any place in
> the books where it is stated as fact that Dumbledore did not
> trust Snape and that is why he has never given him the DADA
> post before.  ...

bboyminn:

Let us not forget that there are many levels of trust. To general have
a strong trust in Snape, it quite different than trusting Snape with
the DADA job. The DADA job was not a matter of Snape's loyalty to
Dumbledore, it was a matter of both the job's curse and Snape's
fondness for the Dark Arts. Given those two, it would be unwise to let
Snape have the job. But in the last book, several circumstance
conspired to make this the year. Snape made an Unbreakable Vow, that
backed him into a corner. He was doomed no matter what, so he might as
well have the job. Second, after so many year of the cursed DADA job,
I don't think there was a single soul left who was willing to take the
job, so that left Snape. Combine the two, and as I said, the time was
ripe.

  
> 
> 15.  How do you feel about Harry's savage comment that at least
> it means Snape will be gone by the end of the year?  ..
> 

bboyminn:

Just a case of Harry's normal frustration with Snape. I don't think he
meant the 'death' part literally. We, people in general,  frequently
make extreme comments like this as a way of releaving tension. That
all I see happening, Harry releaving some of his tension and
frustration surrounding Snape. I didn't put to much stock in it.


> 16. Do you think Dumbledore's specific mentioning of not wandering
> after bedtime is aimed at the trio in particular?
> 

bboyminn:

Oh, yes indeed. Though I must point out that because of Harry's POV,
we don't know that much about what other students and other Houses do.
I can't believe that they are all saint who never get up to any
mischief. But we certainly know that Harry has a tendency to wander
about at night, so I do think there was special emphasis in
Dumbledore's statement directed at the Trio.


> 17.  When Harry tells Ron about the things he overheard Draco 
> saying on the train, we see more doubt on the part of Harry's
> circle about his suspicions of Draco.  Why doesn't Ron believe
> that Draco is up to anything? 

bboyminn:

Ron certainly believes that Draco is up to something, but he is having
trouble accepting that it is Death Eater business. I think to most,
and reasonable so, it seems incomprehensible that a pampered cowardly
schoolyard bully like Draco would actually be a Death Eater and
involved in a Death Eater plot. They do believe Harry, they just
aren't willing to believe at the extreme that Harry is willing to go.

As others have addressed, I think the Trio being excluded from the
Order contributes to their sense that Draco could never be a Death
Eater. The one thing they forget, unlike the Order where people care
what happens to it's member, the Death Eaters are cold and ruthless;
any means to achieve their end, even if it mean using schoolboys.

Also, I think indirectly, Draco approached Voldemort with the idea of
getting into the castle undetected, and I'm sure Draco would have
gladly done THAT PART. But Voldemort is never content to allow people
to operate within their comfort zones. He must assert absolute control
and authority over them. So Voldemort tacks on the additonal task of
killing Dumbledore, couching it as a great honor and service to the
Dark Lord. Draco may be dumb, but not so dumb as to think he can
refuse or bargain with the Dark Lord. Now he is stuck. Now he must
face what being a Death Eater really means. It means the loss of free
will. It means being at the total control of the Dark Lord, bowing to
his every illogical and irrational whim. Not as grand and glorious a
life as I speculate Draco had dreamed. 

Just a few thoughts.

STeve/bboyminn