DD trust in Snape again. WAS: Evil Hermione

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 154701

> Pippin:
<SNIP>
 Besides which, why *couldn't* Snape have allowed
> Harry to be killed in front of him? Dumbledore wasn't there and
> Snape is supposed to be so good at misleading him.
> 
> McGongall didn't come under suspicion for failing to protect Barty 
Jr, 
> did she? All Snape would have had to do was shed a few more of 
> those crocodile tears he claims to be so good at producing (and 
> when have we seen any?) If Snape's character hinges on his
> ability to display remorse, then JKR has let us 
> down by not showing him in action. 

Alla:

Because Harry is much more important figure than Barty Crouch and 
Dumbledore would have been much more displeased? Speculating here, 
but who knows maybe DD would not have resisted an investigation and 
dear Snape would have been put in front of Wizengamot again?

And maybe he would have been sent to Azkaban, where he displayed no 
desire of going earlier? 

Pippin: 
> ( I cannot resist remarking that Lupin's displays of remorse are 
> very much in evidence.: And that I agree with Phoenixgod that 
> remorse alone is never enough.)

Alla:

Yes, and I LOVE Lupin for that, for his remorse. Something that I am 
still to see from Snape.

> Alla: 
> > Isn't it interesting that Dumbledore does NOT insist at all that 
> > eleven year old Harry thank Snape for saving his life?
> 
> Pippin:
> When has Dumbledore told anybody they should feel grateful for
> anything? The only person who tries to feel grateful because he is
> obligated is Lupin, and even if you don't see him as  negatively
> as I do, it doesn't sound like he's doing a very good job. Why 
would 
> Dumbledore want Harry to feel like that?
<SNIP>

Alla:

Nope, to me Lupin deserves a respect for trying, it is just when he 
tries to feel grateful to SNAPE I am not very convinced of his 
sincerity, that's all.


Pippin: 
> And when has the reason Dumbledore gives been the ONLY reason
> Dumbledore has? 

Alla:

My point is that Dumbledore does not forget to remind Harry to call 
SNape Professor, but that is the only thing he insists on. Wouldn't 
that be much better if DD insisted on Harry thanking Snape right 
away? Could it be that there is a reason he did not?
 
> > 
> > Alla:
> > 
> > But if one evaluates what Snape did to Harry as continuous 
> > destruction of Harry's dignity on the day to day basis, then 
bigger 
> > picture becomes something very different IMO.
> 
> Pippin:
< HUGE SNIP>
> I defy you to show me one moment when Harry's dignity 
> was destroyed by Snape. <SNIP>

Alla:

Sure, but I did not say that Snape succeeded in destructing Harry 
dignity. He TRIED, yes, the fact that Harry is strong does not make 
Snape ATTEMPTS less despicable to me.

I don't need to show you how Snape destroyed Neville's dignity, 
don't I?

But back to Harry. Of course when Harry is looking for DD to tell 
him about Barty Sr. counts to me, of course when Snape is too 
humiliated to confess that thirteen year old wizards overpowered him 
and comes up with the tale that they were confunded counts to me ( 
and no, I am not buying that Snape was trying to save them from      
expulsion there - if he truly did, all that he needed IMO was not to 
open his mouth AT ALL, there was no need to tell Fudge that Trio did 
ANYTHING to Snape in the first place to put them in danger of 
explulsion in the first place). Of course Snape "teaching" 
Occlumency to Harry counts to me and of course the fact that Harry 
feels "imprisoned" when he is in the room with Snape shows to me 
that Snape at least PARTIALLY suceeded in destroying his dignity.


> wynnleaf
> You know, there's a far cry between my words for Harry to give "a 
tiny
> bit of thought" and yours for why he shouldn't "change his mind."  
My
> point was that Harry won't think about it *at all.*

Alla:

I am sorry. Let me rephrase it then, I don't think Harry has a 
reason to think about it at all. One can argue that day to day 
interactions are less important, but IMO from day to day 
interactions comes the bigger picture. Snape's "everyday evil" that 
is if he is on DD!Side may as well cloud from Harry his "bigger 
actions" IF they exist, but I think it is very understandable.

 
> wynnleaf
> Well, no, in fact he doesn't.  He says absolutely nothing about 
ever
> saving Harry's life.  He gives Bella an explanation for why he 
hadn't
> murdered Harry.  They are really quite different things. <SNIP>

Alla:

Yes, so my point is maybe he was NOT saving Harry's life and just 
not murdering him?


 
> Alla
> > Isn't it interesting that Dumbledore does NOT insist at all that 
> > eleven year old Harry thank Snape for saving his life?
> > 
> > Instead Dumbledore gives Harry IMO a very clear suggestion that 
the 
> > ONLY reason Snape tried to save Harry was  that he was hoping to 
pay 
> > his life debt and be done with it?
> 
> wynnleaf
> And since he paid it then, why's he still saving lives? 

Alla:

No, I don't think that he did. DD said - tried to pay.  I will refer 
you to Neri's posts about Life debt, but it would make perfect sense 
to me that for Debt to be paid Snape had to be the ONLY one who 
saved Harry in PS and as we know, he was not.

Of course we do not know how Life debt precisely works, but to me it 
makes perfect sense that precisely because we don't know, it will be 
hugely important in the resolution of the books.

So, I think Snape debt is still alive and well.


> 
> Alla 
> > Isn't it possible that Dumbledore is right here?
> 
> wynnleaf
> Never said he wasn't.  I tend to have a *great deal* of confidence 
in
> DD's opinions.  Harry, on the other hand, takes those he likes and
> disbelieves those he doesn't.  Quite convenient.

Alla:

Um, not sure about Harry :), but I for example take a great deal of 
confidence in Dumbledore's "FACTUAL' opinions and very little 
confidence in his emotional opinions , in his judgments about 
people, since both JKR and DD said that he makes mistakes.
 



JMO,

Alla