KarmaRe: muggle baiting vs. muggle torture

[festuco]

No: HPFGUIDX 155766

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "houyhnhnm102" <celizwh at ...> wrote:
>
> Gerry:
> 
> > ????? And I thought that DD's leaving the school had 
> > everyhting to do with one little sneak who betrayed the 
> > DA and with a Ministry going way out of its bounds and 
> > purpuses. Great, Marietta is not responsible at all, 
> > Umbridge is not responsible at all, the MoM is not 
> > responsible at all, it is all Hermione's fault that 
> > DD left the school.
> 
> houyhnhnm:
> 
> The DA was Hermione's plan therefore she is responsible 
> for the success or failure of the plan.  To say that 
> she isn't is like saying that a defeated general is 
> not responsible for a badly thought out campaign.  
> It's the enemy's fault.  

Gerry
That is completely different. In this case the DA was hugely succesful
but they were betrayed. 
> 
> There are a lot of steps Hermione could have taken to 
> forestall such a betrayal.  She could have recruited 
> more carefully in the first place.  She could have 
> anticipated the fact that her sneak hex would not 
> give the DAs *advance* warning that one of their 
> members was going to Umbridge and taken steps to 
> correct that deficiency.  

Gerry
So that makes Hermione responsible for the betrayal instead of
Marietta? I think for a sixteen year old schoolgirl Hermione did a
very good job. No it was nog good enough. But that does not make her
responsible for Marietta's betrayal. 
> 
> Marietta's discomfort with what they were doing was 
> evident at the first meeting in the RoR. That meeting 
> took place before the first quidditch match of the year 
> (so probably in October).  Marietta didn't betray the 
> DAs to Umbridge until shortly before Easter break. So 
> for five to six months, what is Hermione doing about it?  
> Is she keeping an eye on disaffected members such as 
> Marietta, talking to them, watching them, taking any 
> kind of pro-active steps at all to prevent the DAs' 
> being betrayed?  No.  She blithely assumes everything 
> is going to go her way just because she wants it to.

Gerry:
Was Marietta disaffected? Did she talk about it? Did she mention it?
And how should Hermione have kept an eye on her? Or on Smit, who we do
see as being disaffected? They are in different houses. Should
Hermione have made her own spy network? 
> 
> Gerry:
> 
> > Sirius was not reckless [...] The person who was responsible 
> > for his death was Bellatrix.
> 
> houyhnhnm:
> 
> ****************
> Harry saw Sirius duck Bellatrix's jet of red light:  he 
> was laughing at her.  "Come on, you can do better than 
> that!" he yelled, his voice echoing around the cavernous room.
> ****************
> 
> Swashbuckling, Gryffindorian derring-do.  It is Sirius' 
> character in a nutshell.  It got him killed.
> 
Gerry
Blaming the victim. Sorry but I get rather angry with this sort of
reasoning. Because I've seen it in the past: she should have dressed
differently, she should not have walked there, etc. etc. Or: she
should not have made me angry (how many abusers use this kind of
reasoning?) Yes, maybe he would not have been killed otherwise, but
still Bellatrix is murderer. 

> I know there is a deep divide among listees regarding 
> philosophy of action.  It don't think it will ever be 
> resolved.  There will always be those who say, "I didn't 
> *want* it to turn out this way, therefore it's not my fault."
>
That is completely different. A person is responsible for his own
actions, not for the actions of another person. The person who does
the deed is the one responsible for them. Yes, there were things that
Hermione could have done better, that still makes Marietta responsible
for the betrayal because she did the deed. Yes, Sirius could have
fought more cautious, still Bellatrix went for the kill. 

Gerry