Hate crimes (was Re: muggle baiting vs. muggle torture)

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 155776

Gerry:
> OK, a question to muddle the water even further : ), meant for
> everybody who thinks what the twins did was Muggle baiting or the
same
> as what the DE's did at the campsite. How to call what Harry did to
> aunt Marge? aunt Marge is a Muggle. Harry used magic on her, and 
not
> to bait her. Surperior force, willfully. Is that Muggle torture? Is
> that the same or worse as the DE's did at the campsite? Why? or why
not?

Magpie:
Interesting comparison, given it seems it contains all the things 
that keep getting added to the Twins scene when they're not there.  
Harry is provoked, and up until the moment his Magic bursts from him 
is the person with the least power in the scene.  He tries to ignore 
the provocation.  He's in a state of emotional distress and doesn't 
even consciously hex her iirc.  So less power imbalance, more self-
defense and less intent to perform magic, much less perform it on a 
Muggle.

> Tinktonks
> By your reasoning the twins aren't alowed to dislike Dudley, 
because
> he is a muggle but if he was a wizard they could hate him as much 
as
> they like! Do Harry and Draco wizard bait? No. They do what they do
> because of a clash of personality.

Magpie:
Rubbish.  I have not said anything about the Twins not being allowed 
to dislike Dudley--that's a strawman.  I said they are taking 
advantage of their status as Wizards over his as a Muggle.  Since 
Harry and Draco are both wizards it obviously erases the very power 
imbalance being described.  

Tinktonks:

> The idea of being racist is not hating someone who is black, it is
> hating someone BECAUSE they are black. 

Magpie:
Yes, this is the concept you keep trying to frame the question with, 
and I keep refuses to agree to it.  I know that hating a racism 
means hating a black person because they are black.  We're not 
talking about what they think or what they feel, but what they do.

Tinktonks:
By the same definition the
> twins are not biggots, they play a trick on Dudley who happens to 
be
> a muggle, not BECAUSE he is a muggle.
> 
> I think people are being utterly unfair to Fred and George. They
> have shown no malicious intent towards any muggle because they are 
a
> muggle, just played a trick, (which granted was dangerous, selfish
> and badly thought through) but was NOT muggle baiting!

Magpie:
And I continue to disagree with you and do not see myself as being 
unfair to Fred and George because of it.  Wizards have super powers 
that Muggles do not have.  That is the *definition* of what they 
are.  Taking advantage of those super powers is an abuse of power 
against a Muggle in a way it is not against a Wizard.  The way I 
would frame it using your analogy about racism would be to say that 
okay, a white person does not hate all black people.  But he hates a 
particular one because the guy is a bully.  Does that mean that if 
he chooses to expess his hatred of that black person by using that 
inequality against him, it's not racist? Because by using Magic they 
are using the dividing line between Wizard and Muggle to their 
advantage--in order to test their joke product for Wizards.

> 
> Tinktonks – Who says give Fred and George a break!

-Magpie, who thinks Fred and George don't need a break because

a) They're fictional
b) If they weren't fictional as two kids who just played a prank on 
another kid there's no reason to treat them with extra sensitivity 
and
c) We're having a discussion about something a bit bigger than Fred 
and George needing a break or not, which is why the thread gets a 
lot of replies.  It's not like the books series doesn't seem to 
encourage people to think about exactly this kind of thing.