the whole Christian/Baptism debate that's been going on

[Marion Ros]

No: HPFGUIDX 153866

Festuco wrote:
>>>Hm, fanatical fundamentalist Christians you mean. Normal Christians
lik JKR and most Christian people buy the books, read the books, are
fanatical fans, or don't like children's books and don't get what the
fuss is about. <<<

Marion:
When did the Wizarding World separate itself from the Muggleworld? It think I saw a date somewhere which pinpointed the separation in the seventeenth century. May I remind the gentle readers that in the 17th century there were no 'normal Christians like JKR and most Christian people that buy the books'. Although the burnings in Europe had stopped by that time, in America the Salem Witchhunts had not even begun (1692 I believe)
When Wizards and Witches still lived amongst Muggles they were hunted down. Burned. Not by 'normal Christians' but by Christians. Using books like the Malleus Maleficarum ('Witches Hammer') and condoned, even lead, by the (Christian) Church.
And the decision to separate/hide from the Muggle world must have been a global one (although one suspects that it might've taken slightly more time in the Colonies, it being thinner populated) tying neatly with the rise of the Enlightenent period, where the idea of Magic and Superstition was scoffed in favor of Reason.


festuco:
>>>>In those days Britain was
a Christian country. The magical community knew they worshipped Christ
and had nothing to do with the devil. So why would they abandon their
faith? They recognized that it had nothing to do with devil worship
but with fear of power I assume. 


Marion:
You suppose. Yet is there *one* shred of evidence that there are Christian Wizards? Except for the 'godfather' thing, which isn't a thing reserved for Christians (pagans had a concept of an 'honorary uncle that taught the young warrior what he needed to know' as well, you know) or the Christmas tree? (which is also a pagan symbol, and remember: they don't celebrate *Christmas* at Hogwarts, but they *do* celebrate Yule - a pagan feast - and Halloween - again a pagan feast)
Yet the text is dotted with exclamations like "Merlin!" and "by the gods!".
Not one "Mother of God!" or "Christ!" amongst them.
No sign of a priest, a church or christian rituals.
You assume baptism because JKR uses the term 'godfather', but, as stated, godfathers are not exclusive to christian culture.

Really, I don't understand the reactions I've been seeing in this thread at all (beware: small rant ahead)
If this story took place in say, Shangrilah, tucked away deep in the Himalayans, without (or mostly without) contact with the outside world for centuries, nobody would have a problem with them having different beliefs, but put the story in a tucked away corner of reality in Britain, and suddenly (some) Christian readers are convinced that the Wizarding Culture is "just like us, just with wands".
But it doesn't work that way. The WW is *vastly* different from the Muggle World which they live next to, but which they have completely shut out, don't like, even look down on. But more about that later.


festuco:
>>>>What a scary world you are making. Please start supporting this by
canon instead of giving your own doomsday vision. 


Marion:
What? You think the WW has *christian morals*? You think that it is *nice*?
This is a culture that obliviates Muggels routinely after a 'magical incident' to 'protect itself'. This is mentioned in the books. When Harry and Ron were seen flying that stupid car, several muggles were immediately obliviated.
"Must not be seen at any cost" is the WW's motto. And they go a looong way to protect themself.

Most parents (nowadays, in these enlightened times :-) would be proud or at least accepting of a magical son or daughter. We hope. We've been told that Lily Evans parents were proud. So, apparantly, were the Grangers. But please tell me how often in the six books we have so far Hermione visits/live with her parents? She often ops to stay at Hogwarts over Christmas. When her parents go skiing, she says she hates that and stays in the WW. Even when she does go home over the summer she will stay with the Weasleys for weeks on time. The Grangers might be supportive of their daughter's life as a witch, but even they won't see much of their daughter from age eleven.
But what if they weren't? Does the WW show any compassion with the family members of a newly hatched wizard? 
The Dursleys are scared to death of magic (and why, I wonder? Did they see something that scared them? Did somebody do something nasty to them? This is speculation, but I wonder) Just being smallminded and bourgois doesn't add up to the overwhelming terror they display. I realize that their terror is a device to show the little readers how stupid the Dursleys are. It is supposed to be 'funny'. I don't think that dumping a magical child on the doorstep of magicphobic people is very funny. The message is clear, however. "This is a magical child. You must care for it to give it the protection it needs. You have no choice in this. And when the child is eleven, we will take it away from you again, because it belongs to *our* world, not yours. But for the time being we need some stupid Muggle broodmares to feed it and clothe it and wipe its nose."
I mean, really. If you were phobic about spiders, and somebody gave you his pet tarantula to look after for ten years, what would you do? You'd throw it in a cupboard, throw it some food occasionally and scream if it wandered across your path. And you'd try to forget it existed as much as possible. But you'd know it was there, lurking. And you'd live in fear for all those years.
Is this a nice thing to do to a poor defenseless Muggle couple? One could only hope that when Harry turns seventeen they will be obliviated and able to live out their boring, middleclass, mediocre lives as they want it. It would make them happy.

But the WW doesn't give a hoot about what *Muggles* feel. They look down on them. 
Even Arthur Weasley, head of the Department of Misuse of Muggle Object and selfproclaimed Muggle-lover, doesn't even know the most basic things about Muggle everyday life. His attitude is not 'aren't Muggles interesting people' but more 'isn't it amazing that dispite the handicap of not having magic they can do such clever tricks'. As if Muggles were amusing pets, not real people with feelings. Look at the way he barges in the Dursleys home with half his family in tow. Talking loudly and condencendingly to the Dursleys the way (some of) the British do when abroad and talking to 'those amusing foreigners'.

This is a culture that throws people into jail without even a proper hearing, on suspicion only. Whose jail is guarded by *soul-sucking ghouls*.

This is a culture that dangles children out of windows to see if they have magic or are squibs (Neville tells us that his Uncle Alby did this, and Neville tells this as a matter of fact, not as if the people he tells it to should be shocked about it)
This is a culture that practices 'squibicide'. Yes, children of old families that turn out to be squibs might have a nasty 'accident' and the government turns a blind eye.

This is a world where the media is controlled by the government and the government is as corrupt as a rotten pear.

This is *not* a nice world.

Obliviating the Muggle parents that are unwilling to let their magical offspring go to Hogwarts, or stealing those magical children from parents who think that magic is 'sent by the devil' would be a nobrainer for the WW. They'd approve wholeheartedly. To let magical children stay in the Muggle world would be a danger to the secrecy of the WW after all (it tends to get noticed when children start to perform wild magic, and 'getting noticed' is what the WW are NOT willing to risk)

I bet that if the WW had taken Harry away from the Dursleys after his first year, if they had obliviated the Dursleys to believe that Harry never existed, most of the HP readers would've cheered them on. But when I suggest that the WW would routinely uses Oblivate on religiously zealous parents (ready to 'beat the devil' out of their magical offspring) you think I'm 'making a scary world'?

I did not give you 'my own doomsday vision', I just gave you what I deducted from the text.


Marion
  .
   
   

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]