LID!Snape rides again (was: High Noon for OFH!Snape)

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 149777

Neri wrote:
> > But mostly for me it's just that I can't buy such unbelievable
incompetence in Snape. After all, secret agent Snape already had a
pretty poor track record even before HBP. Not only the way he handled
the Occlumency lessons, but also how he failed to prevent Harry from
going to the DoM when he was the last Order member at Hogwarts. And
when did secret agent Snape ever save the day with inside information
from Voldemort's camp? So in HBP secret agent Snape attempts to save
Draco and uncover Voldy's plan, and he ends up killing Dumbledore
himself. And on the top of that he doesn't even manage to save Draco
from Voldemort. I simply can't buy such incompetence. It would make
the whole spying career of DDM!Snape look like one big joke. 
> 
> Jen: But geez, look at his career for the *other* side, it's pretty 
> sad as well: Stopped Voldy from taking the Stone, interfered with 
> Quirrell's attempts to kill Harry, notified the Order (almost too 
> late if you prefer) of Harry & Co. going to the DOM, enables 
> Voldemort to underestimate Harry by feeding him the "getting by on 
> luck and more talented friends" line, doesn't tell Voldemort of 
> Dumbledore's very unusual injury but instead blames his slowed 
> reactions on the fight with Voldemort. *Then*, Snape caps off his 
> illustrious career by undermining the Dark Lord's big revenge plan 
> when he takes an *Unbreakable* Vow behind the Dark Lord's back just 
> because a pretty woman shed a few tears on his chest. Pathetic.

Carol responds:
Not to mention that the Occlumency lessons failed primarily because of
Harry, who let his hatred of Snape interfere with them, didn't
practice, wouldn't close his mind at night because he *wanted* to have
that dream, and finally stuck his nose into that Pensieve because he
couldn't resist an impulse he knew was wrong. Oops. And he did get the
Order members--and Dumbldore--to the DoM on time (I know your
arguments about the delay, but in the end the delay, if there was one,
didn't matter). We don't know what he did for the Order, but they
certainly seemed interest in his report in OoP; they knew he was doing
something important and dangerous. And DD wouldn't continue to trust
him in SS weren't providing useful information (such as LV's reaction
when Lucius Malfoy confessed the diary stunt). And it must have been
Snape who informed DD that LV was after the Prophecy in the first
place. As for Snape not saving Draco from Voldemort, how do you know
that, Neri? I'm guessing that Snape reported to LV as soon as possible
and persuaded him not to hurt the boy because he had succeeded in
repairing the Vanishing Cabinet and letting the DEs into Hogwarts,
enabling Snape to kill DD. Mission accomplished. If Snape *doesn't* do
something of the sort, he's a dead man. The first two provisions of
the UV, so far as we know, are still in effect until Narcissa removes
them. So I disagree that Spy!Snape is a disaster. YMMV, as Nora says. 

As for DDM!Snape killing DD, killing DD, you know the arguments and
I'm not going to repeat them except to say that there was no saving DD
from the DEs if Snape or the poison didn't kill him, and both Draco
and Harry would almost certaingly have died with DD and Snape if Snape
had allowed the UV to kill him. Only Snape could get Harry safely off
the tower and the DEs and Draco off the Hogwarts grounds. (The
arguments and evidence for this idea have already been presented by
many people in many threads. Anyone who does a search can find them.)

Jen wrote:
> Unless Voldemort already knows about the UV or finds it to be
to his advantage when word gets back to him. The only way I can make
Spinner's End work is to have Voldemort plugged into the equation
somewhere, no matter what flavor of Snape you prefer. <snip paragraph
above presented out of sequence>
 
> So, I deal with it by putting the Voldemort puzzle piece into place
and things look a little brighter, don't they? Even Dumbledore was
bested by Voldemort in the end, there's no shame in Snape being 
twisted into a pretzel and made to suffer by the Greatest Dark Lord
ever.  The mouse in the trap, the fly in the web--Voldemort found
Snape's weakness once again as he did the first time Snape foolishly
wore his heart on his sleeve, manipulating him into the position of
killing the Only One Who Ever Believed In Him.
> 
> It's just so vintage Voldemort I don't get why people don't buy this
one. Would someone argue with me so I can understand the objections 
to Voldemort being behind this plot? <snip>

Carol responds:
Okay, here goes. Narcissa is going to Snape for help behind LV's back.
*She's* not going to tell him. Peter Pettigrew has been ousted from
the room with what appears to be an Impervius (sp?) Charm on the door.
He has nothing to report except that Bella and Narcissa came to see
Snape. And he is hunchbacked and suffering from the treatment he's
received from LV (repeated Crucios, apparently). He's not going to
give up his (relatively) cushy position as Snape's "assistant" by
revealing such a tiny bit of info to LV. And Bellatrix has aided her
sister by acting as bonder in the LV, which protects Draco from
Voldemort. She's not going to report that to LV. And Snape has
carefully established that Bella is on the outs with LV before
answering her questions. And there's the point I raised
before--Narcissa at first attempts to go to Snape by herself, against
Bella's objections. Had she succeeded, there would have been no third
person (except the universally despised PP, who is excluded from the
conversation) to perform the UV. It cannot have been planned by
Narcissa or by Voldemort, and certainly not by Bellatrix, who's as
surprised by it as Snape is.

I think that the UV is the manifestation of the DADA curse, which
falls into place as Slughorn accepts the Potions position. At that
point, Narcissa is inspired to ask Snape to take the vow, carefully
concealing from him the third provision (or it's a late inspiration
after he's agreed to the other two). So Voldemort is behind it, all
right, but not directly or consciously. His *will* is at work to
destroy both Dumbledore and Snape. So, yes, Snape is caught in a trap,
but he's not a mouse or a fly. The spider is caught in his own web. In
attempting to persuade Bellatrix of his loyalty, he has further
strengthened *Narcissa's* belief in him. And DDM!Snape will have
promised Dumbledore (whom DDM!Snape has already told about Draco's
mission to kill DD) to do everything in his power not only to maintain
his cover but to protect Draco from harm, death, or the act of murder
(see the argument in the forest)--hence his willing agreement to the
first two provisions and his forced and reluctant agreement to the
third. (Interpretation, not fact, I know!)

I see no way that Voldemort could consciously have engineered the UV
and talked Narcissa (who is terrified that LV will kill Draco) into
trapping Snape, nor do I see how word of the UV could have gotten back
to him. Certainly, neither Bellatrix nor Narcissa would tell LV about
the provisions involving Draco, which clearly violate LV's will. But
since the third provision trapped Snape, forcing him to kill DD or die
himself (unless he and DD could find a way around it, as Snape must
have hoped), I don't think Voldemort would disapprove of that part in
the unlikely event that he did hear about it. I think he would laugh
shrilly at Snape's dilemma and his own diabolical cleverness,
recognizing the DADA curse at work: his scheme of forty-odd years ago
falling into place at last.

Just my reading, which otherwise is not all that different from yours.
No LID!Snape anywhere in sight. Just DDM!Snape, trapped by his
all-too-effective double agent role and thwarted, perhaps doomed, by
the DADA curse.

Carol