LID!Snape rides again (was: High Noon for OFH!Snape)

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 149781

> >>Neri:
> > But mostly for me it's just that I can't buy such unbelievable
> > incompetence in Snape. After all, secret agent Snape already had 
> > a pretty poor track record even before HBP. Not only the way he 
> > handled the Occlumency lessons, but also how he failed to       
> > prevent Harry from going to the DoM when he was the last Order   
> > member at Hogwarts.

Betsy Hp:
I think you've hit on the exact reason Snape has so many problems 
with Harry.  Because Harry totally screws with Snape's efforts and 
never seems to realize what he's done.

The Occlumency lessons were doomed from the start.  Harry didn't 
want to learn them, and so he didn't.  Massive frustration for 
Snape, I'm sure, who was as unthrilled to be there as Harry but at 
least put in an effort.

Then Harry passes on his message about Sirius being in danger, and 
then, stupidly, doesn't bother to check with Snape before flying off 
to the DoM with his little friends in tow.  (I can imagine the 
moment Snape starts to realize what Harry has done, stomping through 
the forest and thinking, "No, not even Harry could be this big of an 
idiot... Oh, hell, yes he can!" and then running his ass back to 
Hogwarts to put in an emergency call to the Order. (threw in Jogging!
Snape for Sydney) <g>) 

I'd say the debacle in PS/SS where Harry very nearly died was also a 
time he screwed with Dumbledore's plan, messed up Snape's hard work 
with Quirrell, and only Dumbledore's quick thinking saved the day.  
So an early precedent was set.

> >>Neri:
> And when did secret agent Snape ever save the day with inside     
> information from Voldemort's camp?
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
IIRC, it was inside information that told Dumbledore that Voldemort 
was after the prophecy.  And yes, the Harry-factor nearly screwed 
the plan Dumbledore spun from that information, but the result was 
the same: Voldemort was outed to the WW.

Also, Snape told Dumbledore that Voldemort was sending Draco in to 
kill him.  I suspect there's more that Snape's done that we haven't 
been privy to, mainly because JKR is still trying to keep Snape's 
character ambiguous.

> >>Carol:
> <snip>
> We don't know what he did for the Order, but they  certainly      
> seemed interest in his report in OoP; they knew he was doing      
> something important and dangerous. And DD wouldn't continue to    
> trust him in SS weren't providing useful information (such as LV's 
> reaction when Lucius Malfoy confessed the diary stunt). 
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
So yeah, Snape *was* getting information to the Order.  And most 
importantly, Snape helped Dumbledore realize exactly how Voldemort 
has attempted to acheive immortality.  And that ain't nothing. <g>

> >>Jen:
> > Unless Voldemort already knows about the UV or finds it to be
> > to his advantage when word gets back to him. The only way I can 
> > make Spinner's End work is to have Voldemort plugged into the   
> > equation somewhere, no matter what flavor of Snape you prefer. 

Betsy Hp:
Is there anything in canon to suggest that Voldemort knows about the 
UV?

> >>Jen:
> > <snip>
> > The mouse in the trap, the fly in the web--Voldemort found      
> > Snape's weakness once again as he did the first time Snape       
> > foolishly wore his heart on his sleeve, manipulating him into   
> > the position of killing the Only One Who Ever Believed In Him.
> > It's just so vintage Voldemort I don't get why people don't buy 
> > this one. Would someone argue with me so I can understand the    
> > objections to Voldemort being behind this plot? <snip>

> >>Carol:
> <snip>
> I see no way that Voldemort could consciously have engineered the 
> UV and talked Narcissa (who is terrified that LV will kill Draco) 
> into trapping Snape, nor do I see how word of the UV could have   
> gotten back to him. Certainly, neither Bellatrix nor Narcissa     
> would tell LV about the provisions involving Draco, which clearly 
> violate LV's will. 
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
I agree with Carol that, logistically, it makes sense that Voldemort 
doesn't know about the Vow.  Another problem I have with Voldemort 
using Narcissa to trap Snape into the Vow is that it weakens the 
emotion going on in Spinner's End.  These three people (not 
including Peter here since Snape threw him out) are going *against* 
Voldemort.  They all realize this.

Narcissa is going against Voldemort to save her family.  She's a 
wreck, and she's terrified, but she's intent on doing whatever she 
can to save her son.

Bellatrix is going against Voldemort in her desperate need to 
undermine Snape.  It's a nice bit of irony, but in her eagerness to 
prove Snape's disloyalty she undertakes a bit of disloyalty 
herself.  (I think she may also see a way back into Voldemort's good 
graces with Draco's task and is attempting to keep Narcissa from 
messing with her plan.  More irony. <g>)

Snape, of course, is totally disloyal to Voldemort and is willing to 
do what it takes to prevent him from achieving his goals.  And if he 
can tie the Malfoy family to Dumbledore's side, all the better.  
Which means he's the least honest character in the room.

But Narcissa's fear and determination, Bellatrix's suspicions, those 
all struck me as entirely honest.  I cannot see either woman playing 
a deeper game here, so I cannot see Voldemort being behind the Vow.

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > ESE, or Voldemort's Man!Snape would have *never* taken the UV.

> >>Eggplant:
> Nonsense, if he was Voldemort's man (and I don't think he was) he
> would have every reason to watch over Draco "as he attempts to    
> fulfill the Dark Lord's wishes"

Betsy Hp:
Ah.  So we'll ignore the whole "I want Draco to do this on his own" 
thing?  That's the thing about Evil Overlords, they're *so* 
understanding when someone violates a direct order.  Except for how 
they're totally not. <g>

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > Out For Himself!Snape also makes little sense tying his survival 
> > to someone else.

> >>Eggplant:
> I believe it makes absolutely perfect sense for reasons I've      
> explained more than once.

Betsy Hp:
That's the, "Snape as third most powerful wizard on the planet looks 
to Harry to kill the number one most powerful wizard, while Snape 
takes care of the number two most powerful wizard" theory right?  
Actually, if there were any hints of Snape forming his own power 
base, or being interested in that sort of thing, I *could* see that 
flavor of OFH!Snape taking the Vow.  Though there's still the whole, 
if Draco dies so does Snape thing, that I just cannot see the third 
smartest and most powerful wizard on the planet overlooking.  After 
all, Snape can kill Dumbledore without Vowing to do so.  Your Snape 
would have killed Dumbledore on the Tower, Vow or no Vow.  So again, 
no reason for him to take it.

> >>Eggplant:
> But I'll tell you what doesn't make sense, I'll tell you what's   
> absolutely screwy, I'll tell you what's completely insane,
> it's the idea that Snape vowing to murder Dumbledore proves that   
> Snape is loyal to Dumbledore. Even JKR couldn't make a good book   
> out of that cockeyed premise.

Betsy Hp:
Oh, that's totally true.  Taking the Vow doesn't *prove* Snape's 
loyalty to Dumbledore, and neither does killing Dumbledore on the 
Tower.  All I'm saying is, the only flavor of Snape that *would* 
take the Vow is the DDM variety.  And yes, a DDM!Snape would murder 
Dumbledore.  We saw that in the cave when DDM!Harry force fed 
Dumbledore poison on Dumbledore's orders.

Betsy Hp