Abuse, etc., was Snape, Apologies, and and Redemption--Lupin vs. DD

[leslie41]

No: HPFGUIDX 152572

> > Leslie41:
> > I also had a teacher in jr. high that I realize in retrospect 
> > was quite like Snape.  And a friend who was very Neville-ish, in 
> > personality if not in ability (she was a high achiever).  I 
> > hated this teacher, and so did she.  He wasn't a particularly 
> > good  teacher either.  She felt terrorized by his imposing 
> > personality, and it made her physically ill.  I just thought he 
> > was a complete jerk, but he didn't scare me at all.  If you ask 
> > her whether or not she felt "abused," she might say yes.  If you 
> > ask me, I would say absolutely not.
 
> Alla:
> But don't you think that in this situation your opinion is not 
> relevant in determining whether that teacher was abusive towards 
> your friend? IMO if she felt abused, THAT is what counts, 
> especially if you yourself said that this teacher made her 
> physically ill that even though this teacher was not scaring you, 
> you think he was a jerk. My guess is that you could handle his 
> abuse, not let it get to you, etc and your friend could not, so 
> IMO that does not make what he did to be less abusive.

Leslie41:
But you're judging whether or not there was abuse on the basis of 
whether or not abuse is perceived, not whether or not it actually 
occurred.  A child, for example, can feel "abused" in all sorts of 
situations where no abuse exists.  My own child, for example, just 
screamed bloody murder and cried for 15 minutes because I made her 
sit in the "naughty chair".  Other kids feel they're being abused if 
they don't get cell phones.  I'm making some rather grandiose 
comparisons, I know, but the fact is that perception is not always 
reality.  The difficulty always comes down to defining "abuse" in a 
way that we all can agree upon.  
 
> To go back to canon, I frankly do not see how Snape's crap he 
> dishes upon Harry and Neville cannot be considered abuse.

Leslie41:
And there's the rub.  I don't. But the word "abuse" in both its noun 
and verb form vary extremely in their definitions.  I would agree, 
for example, that Snape speaks to Neville and Harry rudely, 
and "intends to offend or hurt". I would disagree what Snape does 
constitutes inhumane treatment.    
 
> And especially after OOP,where what Snape did to Harry for five 
> years ended up in Harry not only unable to trust Snape AT ALL, but 
> forgetting that Snape IS the order member who can help them 
> somehow, I just don't see how that is not the most obvious 
> consequence of abusive teacher dishing the fruits of his labor 
> where from his very first lesson he made Harry distrust, fear and 
> hate him.

Leslie41:
Hey, I'm the last person to support Snape as a model of an 
emotionally healthy, self-actualized adult.  But I don't think he's 
abusive, and I would argue that his effect on Harry has been more 
positive than negative, especially when you consider what Snape, 
(esp. as the HBP) has taught him.

No bezoar, Ron *dies*.  That's a fact.  The HBP taught Harry how to 
save his best friend.  And that's just one example (albeit the most 
potent one I think). One would be hard pressed to come up with a 
similar example from any one of the other "good" teachers.        

> > Leslie_41:
> > Truthfully, I think it diminishes the authentic cases of the 
> > abuse of children to classify what Snape does as "abuse".

 
> Alla:
> 
> And I think that the fact that there are many cases of more 
> serious abuse than what Snape does, does not make what he does any 
> less abusive. I look at Snape's actions as Snape's actions only. I 
> do not compare them to Umbridge, or anybody else. Because while 
> Umbridge's abuse is unquestionably more serious, in itself Snape 
> actions IMO are serious enough to warrant calling them abuse too.

Leslie41:
I don't think what he does is "abuse" in the way I've seen that word 
used on this board.   
 
> Leslie_41:
> I was a child once, I have a child, and I'm an educator myself, 
> so I kind of understand all sides of the issue, I think.  My 
> opinion is also colored by my belief that the purpose of 
> education, especially after a student becomes an adolescent, is 
> not necessarily to provide the student with self-esteem, but 
> rather with knowledge and discernment in hopes that they will 
> develop a critical mind, and the ability to reason soundly and 
> logically.  The end result is, hopefully, a productive and 
> informed human being who is capable of contributing something to 
> society.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I disagree that to give student self-esteem is not one of the 
> purposes of education, BUT in any event abusive teacher IMO takes 
> AWAY student's self-esteem, not just not provides student with 
> such.
> 
> Surely you agree that TAKING AWAY student's self-esteem is NOT a 
> purpose of education?

Leslie41:
Actually, often it is, if that self-esteem is unjustified.  If a 
student is unjustifiably convinced of the worth of their work, it is 
my job to deprive them of that 'self-esteem'.