Hagrid and Snape: Was Snape, Apologies, and Redemption/Yo-Yo, Thimble, Mout

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 152806


> Alla:
> 
> Hmmm, that is an interesting analysis and as I said I am really 
not 
> disputing that Hagrid had many problems as a teacher, BUT I do 
> believe that you are downplaying the negative influence Draco's 
> incident had upon Hagrid. In the beginning of PoA, Hagrid IS a 
brand 
> new teacher, no? He has practically no experience and IMO he tries 
> his best to make the class interesting by bringing more advanced 
> creatures, but still those that have to be studied in the same 
year, 
> so really to me it is not such a big deal, I also think that he 
gave 
> the warnings loud an clear, IMO of course.
> 
> In any event, I agree that Hagrid cannot keep class in control and 
> he cannot do it later on too, BUT he suffered enormous stress the 
> FIRST lesson he started teaching - supposedly dear Draco got hurt 
> badly, so very badly and then of course he starts milking his 
injury 
> for what it is worth  in his fire Hagrid and kill Bickbeak.
> 
> All those incidents that you described occurred ( Luna saying that 
> Hagrid is a joke, etc) after incident on the first lesson and IMO 
> incredibly traumatic year for Hagrid. I would say that what Draco 
> did could undermine Hagrid's efforts to become a better teacher A 
> LOT.
> 
> IMO, and of course it is just speculation that if Draco's incident 
> would not have happened , Hagrid could become better teacher much 
> faster.
> 
> Now I am of course not so sure.
> 
> Oh, and let's not forget that in his youth Hagrid was already 
framed 
> by dear Tommie and he was completely innocent then, just as he and 
> Buckbeack IMO were now. I would say that it would increase the 
> trauma, which Draco IMO inflicted upon Hagrid by framing him and 
> Buckbeak.
> 
> I am curious though, what do you mean when you say Snape behaves 
as 
> their peer?

Magpie:
Okay, let me try to explain what I mean.  First in terms of behaving 
as a peer I mean anytime when the teacher sort of gives up what 
should be the objective place of a teacher and fights dirty.  Snape 
does this with Harry.  If I were in his class I would feel 
uncomfortable when he picked on Harry not just because it's cruel 
but because it should be beneath him as a teacher. He's not supposed 
to interact with kids on that level in class and get personally 
ruffled.  When he does that, to me, he shows a weakness as a teacher.

Now, to get back to Hagrid, JKR has I think implied that one of the 
reasons Snape teaches in her fictional school is that kids have to 
learn to deal with people like him who exist in the world.  In 
Potions class the kids aren't just learning Potions but a 
social/personal lesson about dealing with a person in authority who 
is abusing it, or just a person in authority who is demanding and 
sarcastic etc.  Hagrid, imo, teaches the same kind of personal 
lesson--and he teaches it inside class as well as outside, and he 
began teaching it before he ever became a teacher.  It has nothing 
to do with Malfoy or a lack of confidence.  I really can't imagine 
him being any different if that first class hadn't happened.  

Hagrid on one hand has a lot of good qualities. He's also got a sort 
of amazing ability to tame wild animals etc.  DD says he'd trust 
Hagrid with his life and I believe he means that within the context 
that he is saying it.  However, Hagrid is also a comic character 
because in some ways he's like a big kid.  He's interested in what 
he's interested in, and often can't really see the big picture. Part 
of knowing him, as an adult, is making allowances for this, which is 
why Hagrid is often treated as if he's younger than characters 
younger than he is. Charlie Weasley sternly tells Hagrid he's got 
the dragon eggs counted, for instance, years after Hagrid already 
got into trouble with a dragon.  Harry himself has also accepted 
this aspect of Hagrid. All the Trio know that Hagrid has certain 
limitations they have to work around or defend or put up with.  

As a teacher what this translates to is that in his class the kids 
learn to look out for themselves--I don't think it's OOC for DD to 
see it that way if he thinks Snape's behavior is a learning 
experience.  The class is too dangerous at most times for Hagrid's 
being a "joke" to mean it's a complete blow-off.  He's a lesson that 
sometimes you're going to be in a situation like that and the kids 
have to learn it.  Years after the Buckbeak incident Malfoy is still 
mouthing off, but he's also very jumpy and making sure he hears all 
the directions--after all, the outcome of PoA no matter what threats 
he made is that he's still in this class and Hagrid is still 
Hagrid.  When he asks about the safety of the Thestrals, Hagrid is 
not at all reassuring.  

When Hagrid teaches he's the same guy he is when he's not teaching, 
and the kids all get that and react accordingly.  Harry himself 
loves Hagrid and respects things about him, but he still knows he 
sometimes has to deal with him as a child.  Hagrid hasn't changed 
one way or the other since he started teaching and I really don't 
think he will, because changing Hagrid in this way would be changing 
the essence of Hagrid.  But he fits right into the teaching staff of 
Hogwarts.  Had Harry never known Hagrid outside of class he could 
easily have shown up as the CoMC teacher in third year and be funny, 
the joke being that CoMC is the class where you might get killed 
because the teacher, well-meaning as he seems, is on the monster's 
side.  Mostly Harry's very open about his personal affection for 
Hagrid being the reason he wants him teaching.

> Alla:
> 
> Eh, what do you mean that the other kids are having worst year? 
You 
> mean those whose Slugghorn did not pick for his club? 
> 
> Is there anybody in Slugghorn class whom he actively hates? I 
would 
> take teacher's indifference over hatred at any time, personally.

Magpie:
I'm saying that the substitution of Slughorn is very different than 
the substitution of Grubbly-Plank.  It's not like he's any sort of 
disaster where the kids are dying to have Snape back, but it seems 
like there are definitely times where kids could prefer Snape (and 
not just Slytherins).  Snape has students he doesn't like; Slughorn 
barely disguises his favoritism and a student not in his Slug Club 
has good reason to think he might not even exist in his class.  It 
goes a little further than just indifference, I think.  He's another 
person kids might have to deal with in real life.

-m