What is Manipulation (was Re: Nice versus good, was: Hagrid and Snape)

[Tonks]

No: HPFGUIDX 152856

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" <rdoliver30 at ...> 
wrote:
>
  So let's focus on one issue you bring up -- the charge of being 
manipulative.  I think this is important because it shows up with 
regard to DD as well -- in fact, it's hard to have any mention of DD 
without it showing up.
> 
> What is manipulative?  What about DD and Lupin lead people to 
> suspect that they may be being manipulative?
> 
> Is it being nice and getting what you want from other people?  I 
> suppose it depends.  I would say that manipulation occurs when 
there is miscommunication.  That is, when one person thinks "Oh, 
this is  the nicest guy," and the other is thinking "Oh, now to get 
what I  want."  In other words, manipulation occurs when a lie is 
involved.
> 

Tonks:
According to Dictionary.com  Manipulation is "exerting shrewd or 
devious influence especially for one's own advantage"

Manipulation does not necessary involve a lie.  Any good salesman or 
mental health therapist uses manipulation. The therapist don't like 
to be accused of it, but just because it is in the other person's 
best interest doesn't IMO mean that it isn't manipulation.  

I think the operational word here is "shrewd".  A good therapist or 
hypno-therapist does this when they set up the client to do a 
certain action.  The therapist can just think that they are good at 
what they do, or again IMO, if you are honest with yourself you have 
to admit that not only are you real good at what you do, but you are 
manipulating the client.  It is for his/her own good, in agreement 
with what they say that they want the outcome of their therapy to 
be, but still
   it is done on a subconscious level, the conscious 
mind of the client does not know what is "really" happening.  That, 
as I say IMO, is manipulation.  And there is nothing wrong with it.

When there is something wrong with it would be when it does involve 
a lie. Before I became a therapist, I was a sales rep. for a number 
of different companies/products that were sold to the general 
public.  I loved to "play mental chess" with people when I tried to 
sell them a product.  I liked to compete with other sales reps for 
the top position in the company too. And I would say "any fool can 
lie they way to the top, there is no skill or glory in that!" And 
for me, there would be no fun in that either. There are many people 
who use their charm and skill with words to take advantage of other 
people; that is wrong.  DD does not do that, and I love his style!!  
He is smooth, he is a master!  But he does not lie, and he does not 
take advantage of others for his own selfish benefit. He is very 
shrewd. (Characterized by keen awareness, sharp intelligence, and 
often a sense of the practical. Disposed to artful and cunning 
practices according to Dictonary.com) 

A word about communication styles.  It is true that upper middle 
class society is rather indirect and lower social classes are IMO 
more direct.  You know where you stand and people call a spade a 
spade in the working classes. (Snape is a good example.) If you move 
up to a more "polite" class you have to get use to what 
seems "deceptive practices".  You have to be able to read what the 
person is saying behind what they are saying. And this takes some 
getting use to if one is raised in a working class family, goes to 
college and then interacts with a different social group. I still 
think that most people are too "politically correct' and it feels to 
me like they are lying by not saying what they really think.  But 
this isn't manipulation, it is just a difference in communication 
styles. 

I think manipulation has to begin with the manipulator knowing that 
they are trying to get a particular result by what they are doing. 
(Although some of us are so good at it that it just becomes second 
nature and we forget that we are doing it.  We think that we are 
just very persuasive.)  Harry manipulates Slughorn when he helps him 
get the spider venom and then gets him drunk to get the information 
about the memory.  Everyone manipulates.  Children and dogs are 
masters at it. Manipulation in itself is not good or evil, it 
depends on how you use it and what you do with it.

As to Lupin. I like Lupin.  Other than his `furry little problem' he 
would be a good friend.  He is nice and good both. I don't see him 
as evil in any way.  I tend to be rather dominate so a passive 
person is my kind of person.  If I want to do something and ask you 
to come along and you might rather do something else but say yes 
anyway and never tell me that you want to do Y instead, so what!  I 
have had these discussions with friends in the past "if you really 
hate doing X, tell me!!"  That is what gets me, when they really 
hate something and do it anyway.  But if they really don't care one 
way or the other and just want to come along to be with me.. me
 
me.  That is OK. <evil grin> Lupin is like a good dog.  (I hate 
cats.)

Tonks_op