CHAPDISC: HBP 23, Horcruxes

[snow15145]

No: HPFGUIDX 160584




Snow wrote:

><snip> 
> Voldemort was so greedy to get his hands on Harry that he 
> underestimated Lily's sacrifice or didn't care because he wasn't 
> about to say the spell that would use that murder as a Horcrux. 
What 
> he failed to think of is that Lily would have not only shielded 
Harry 
> with her body but also a Charm, after all her wand was well suited.
> Lily wouldn't have taken any chances with her son and, as I
surmise, placed the simplest spell that works like the old kids saying
" I'm rubber, you're glue, whatever you say, bounces off of me and
sticks to you". Simple but effective, the son-of-a-gun killed himself
by means of an AK to his own body. <snip>

Carol reponds:

I used to believe that Lily had placed a protective charm on Harry
(why else have Ollivander say "nice wand for Charm work"?) and that it
had something to do with the Eihwaz rune (Defense or Protection) that
Hermione mentions in OoP, but JKR has nixed that particular theory by
saying that Lily didn't anticipate her death and that it was her
sacrifice that triggered the deflected AK. That pretty much lets out
any protective charm theories, unfortunately. And we know, of course,
that there's no countercurse for the AK. Protego, which deflects minor
hexes in the way you so humorously describe, doesn't work against the
Unforgiveables.

Snow:

Lily not having anticipated her death would not mean that she wasn't 
clearly aware that Voldemort was after herself and her family and 
would take all necessary precautions. The Potters were in hiding 
guarded by one of the best protections available but I would think 
that she would anticipate trouble and overprotect her child with at 
least Protego, especially when they changed the secret keeper at the 
last moment. 

I do recall fake Moody stating that there is no counter-curse to the 
AK but I don't recall where it says that it cannot be shielded. In 
fact, in the Atrium at the DOM the fountain statues did shield Harry 
from an AK and also Dumbledore:

"You have irked me too often, for too long. AVADA KEDAVRA!"

[
]

"But the headless golden statue of the wizard in the fountain had 
sprung alive, leaping from its plinth, and landed on the floor with a 
crash between Harry and Voldemort. The spell merely glanced off its 
chest as the statue flung out its arms, protecting Harry. OOP 813

And

"Another jet of green light flew from behind the silver shield. This 
time it was the one-armed centaur, galloping in front of Dumbledore, 
that took the blast and shattered into a hundred pieces
" 814

Granted these are objects that are shielding both Harry and 
Dumbledore from the AK but this still sets a president that the AK 
can be shielded. 

Snow:
> 
> The aim of the AK was clearly directed at Harry; Lily was clearly 
> murdered moments prior to the AK attempt; Voldemort clearly lost 
his 
> body with this particular gesture; Harry clearly obtained abilities 
> that belong to Voldemort during this action. This all suggests, to 
> me, that Harry did receive a Horcrux portion of soul that night but 
> not in the encasement manner that coincides with the proper making
of a Horcrux. <snip>

Carol snipped:

But many acts of murder are committed in the WW, especially now that
Voldemort is back. Wormtail has killed, what, thirteen people? Yet not
one of these murders was used to create a Horcrux. Voldemort has also,
according to Dumbledore, murdered a great many people, including some
since his restoration to a body, and not all have been used for
Horcruxes. 

Snow:

Wormtail wouldn't know how to create a Horcrux, or for that matter 
know about them at all, so I think it is safe to say that he did rip 
his soul but those fragments of ripped soul would remain with his 
body until they were released by a spell or in the same manner (I 
propose) Voldemort did when he became a live spirit form. 

Dumbledore also stated that Voldemort chose particular deaths to make 
his Horcruxes. This is an issue, which you have brought up several 
times, of how many persons Voldemort killed at his hand compared to 
all the murders he has been said to be behind. The only rational 
answer, for me, is that Voldemort only killed (in the ripping of the 
soul manner) `himself' when he absolutely had no other choice (like 
Lily) or when he aimed to make a Horcrux from that particular death. 
Otherwise, as you say, how does Voldemort choose from the many 
fragments roaming around inside his body?  

Carol earlier: 
> 
> But I think that if Harry thought his scar contained a soul bit,
he'd see himself as a Horcrux and believe that he has to be
sacrificed, which takes us back to the unsolvable dilemma of how to
destroy himself, the last Horcrux, and kill Voldemort, too. 
> 
> Snow:
> 
> Which is why Dumbledore purposely did not make that particular 
> connection evident. Harry has to view this portion of Voldemort 
> outside the purposely-made Horcrux limitation. The soul bit that I 
> propose is in Harry was not encased within him so there should be
the possibility to expel it or use it against Voldemort without harm
to Harry. 

Carol:

Wouldn't it be simpler if Harry simply had some of Voldemort's powers?
That way there's no soul bit to eliminate and no chance of his
confusing himself with a Horcrux. (As I said, I still don't see how a
soul bit could have gotten into Harry without a spell, and if it did,
he's to all intents and purposes a Horcrux.) 

Snow:

Not to be sarcastic whatsoever, but, I have never viewed JKR as 
simplistic in any of these works. If there are signs that point to 
this type of inevitability then they would certainly need to be taken 
into consideration, I would think, if you are attempting to decipher 
the ending. I certainly don't want to dismiss any usable canon 
because it would be too complicated a method, which I don't think it 
is :) 

> Carol:
> I disagree. Tom killed Myrtle using the Basilisk as his weapon. If
you sic your pit bull on someone, ordering the dog to kill the person,
and the person dies, aren't you guilty of murder? 
> 
> Snow:
> 
> With this proposal, wouldn't each death appointed to a deatheater 
> fall back on Voldemort as the killer? Wouldn't the deatheater 
merely 
> become the weapon?
> 

Carol:

Not really. Nagini is the instrument (weapon) in Myrtle's death just
as his wand is the instrument in the other deaths. Wormtail or some
other Death Eater acts as Voldemort's *agent* (a human being carrying
out the orders or wishes of another), not as his instrument. The
Basilisk, whose only desire is to kill and which cannot disobey Tom's
orders is not an agent. It lacks free will. 

Snow:

I have to make a 180% turn here and ask why the Basilisk and Nagini 
are so different? 

You said up-thread "And DD doesn't mention souls, only living beings 
that can think and move on their own, meaning Nagini." Since you 
state here that the Basilisk lacks free will, does that mean that she 
is not to be considered a living being? If however Nagini and the 
Basilisk along with the Boa in SS were to be considered living 
beings, then wouldn't it stand to follow that their actions are their 
own? 

Carol continuing:

It's an instrument
(weapon) whose eyes and fangs are as deadly as any potion or killing
curse. Tom's command to the Basilisk ("Kill her!" or "Kill him!") is
analogous to his command to his wand, "Avada Kedavra!" Or do you think
that if he'd succeeded in commanding the Basilisk to kill Harry in the
CoS that it wouldn't have been murder because the Basilisk was the
murderer? Not in my view.

Snow:

Actually, Yes! If we are to view one similar living being (the 
basilisk) the same as the other(s) then Nagini and the Boa are also 
categorically instruments also, and don't have free will. By this 
analysis, Nagini could not be a living Horcrux because it lacks free 
will. However, on the other hand, if the basilisk is like Nagini and 
the Boa having free will to make decisions; wouldn't that 
automatically make her an agent to carry out Tom's orders?

Snow:
<snip> Madam Bones was killed but no name was given to the killer, 
> only assumption and we don't know if she attempted to fight back, 
> which I think makes a big difference between killed and murdered. 
> 

Carol: 

Possibly you're thinking of Emmeline Vance. Madam Bones was
apparently killed by Voldemort himself, as Fudge tells the Prime
Minister in "The Other Minister":

"Amelia Bones. The Head of the Department of Magical Law Enforcement.
We think He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named may have murdered her in person,
because she was a very gifted witch and--and all the evidence was that
she put up a real fight" (HBP Am. ed. 13). 

Snow:

So, Amelia did put up a fight, which in my estimation discounts her 
as a murder that splits the soul. 

Carol snipped slightly:

And I doubt that Dorcas's murder was important enough to be used to
make a Horcrux. Note that Dumbledore says that Voldemort normally
reserved Horcrux-making for important murders, implying that he
committed many routine murders without a DE acting as his agent. 

Snow:

I would guess it is one or the other, either Dorcas was important 
enough to make a Horcrux from her death or she fought back which 
would negate her being murdered in the fashion necessary to make a 
Horcrux.  

> Snow:
> 
> That is true, we don't know for certain and can only surmise what 
> happened through the six books we have. I would like to know 
though, 
> how Voldemort only took with him one power of the many that he had, 
> when his body was vanquished at GH:
> 
> "Only one power remained to me. I could possess the bodies of 
> others." GOF 653
> 
> I would think that he had had all his powers before his attempted 
AK 
> on Harry at GH, so I would think that one could assume that those 
> remaining powers went with Harry, where else did they go if not 
with 
> Harry? How did Voldemort get any of his powers back? <snip>

Carol:

I think he had only the one power because he had no body. Once he
could hold a wand again, he could perform any of the spells he knew
before and could perform Legilimency. 

Snow:

I had though of that myself but then I have to take into 
consideration that there are non-verbal spells
then again you may 
need a wand for those as well, I'm really not certain. I also think 
of Wormtail transfiguring into his rat form when he escaped without 
the use of a wand since Harry had just yelled Expelliarmus and the 
wand flew high into the air before he changed. 

In any case I think there might have been more that Voldemort could 
have done even without a wand if he had all his powers. This one is 
still up in the air though for me.

Carol snipped:

I think it's significant that Vapor!mort
didn't possess the body of his infant enemy, though. Did he try to do
so and fail because of Lily's sacrifice? Or did that thought not occur
to him because he was in too much agony to think of anything else? 

Snow:

It is quite curious but if I were to answer off the top of my head, I 
would have to think that Voldemort suspected the child might be as 
powerful as claimed in the prophecy and that he shouldn't take the 
chance until he finds out what went wrong. 

> Snow:
> 
> I wouldn't call it possession per se but we do know that Harry felt 
> as if he knew Tom Riddle for some reason when he first heard his 
> name. We also know that Harry was becoming a bit dark in GOF 
> (Voldemort had some type of body) and even more so in OOP 
(Voldemort 
> was fully resurrected to a human form) when he resorted to the use
of an unforgivable curse on Bella before his actual possession
attempted by Voldemort in the Atrium, which rid Voldemort's connection
through Legilimency that was probably influencing Harry's dark side
or, in other words, the soul fragment connection. <snip>

Carol:

Or rather, the scar connection, which, like the Dark Marks on the arms
of the Death Eaters, grew stronger as Voldemort grew stronger. The
soul fragment connection is an assumption on your part. 

Snow:

You are correct that it is an assumption on my part but it is an 
assumption with suggestive canon and very little canon (if any) to 
dispute it. We do come to a draw until the next book or if, as you 
would like, the lady disputes it before that time. 

I don't see anything else that could logically have happened that 
night to connect Harry and Voldemort in such an equal manner. The 
connection between Harry and Voldemort existed more so than the 
connection between the deatheaters and Voldemort; in the same time 
frame that the deatheaters felt Voldemort to be gone since their dark 
marks were no longer visible, Harry was making a connection through 
his scar when he was physically near to him and felt like he was 
forgetting a long lost friend when he heard the name Tom Riddle. 

This connection surpasses `a bit' of a connection with Voldemort. To 
be marked as Voldemort's equal I would think Harry would have to have 
an equal portion.  

Carol:
> 
> Because Lily and Petunia are blood relatives. But that doesn't make
> Petunia's blood magical. 
> 
> Snow:
> 
> Petunia's blood was not born magical but when she took Harry in she 
> sealed the pact that Dumbledore presented. Dumbledore used the 
> connection of the family's blood to make the most powerful ancient 
> magical protection against Voldemort:
> 
> "she sealed the charm "I" placed upon you. "Your mother's sacrifice 
> made the bond of blood the strongest shield "I" could give you." 
OOP 836
> 
> If Dumbledore used the bond of blood as part of the charm, wouldn't 
> it follow that Petunia earned this protection as well, after all 
the 
> same blood runs through her veins?

Carol:

But that doesn't make Petunia's blood magical. she's still a Muggle,
with nonmagical Muggle blood, and will never, as JKR has told us, be
able to perform magic. If Petunia benefits because of the blood
protection, it's because of Dumbledore's extension of the blood
protection to her and because of her blood relationship to Lily, not
because of any magic in her own blood. But Voldemort, as a wizard,
*does* have magic in his blood, as does Harry, which is why
Voldemort's powers could have passed to Harry through a drop of his
blood entering Harry's cut (without diminishing Voldemort's own powers
once he regained a magical body) and why Voldemort specifically wanted
Harry's magical blood, with its blood protection, as opposed to some
other wizard's (a Muggles's blood would not do because it isn't 
magical). 

Snow:

I will concede to magic in the blood but not to the extent of Harry's 
connection being blood related. As I stated a moment ago, Harry 
received equal portions to Voldemort. The Prophecy states that the 
Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, not simply his powers. 

Harry also has connected with his memory, via the name Tom Riddle and 
also his emotions, when he would become extremely happy or irate. I 
don't think those emotions could be passed on through blood. 

> Snow:
> 
> I meant Harry is unique in the sense that he does have Voldemort
soul like a Horcrux has but not the limitations of a Horcrux since he 
> isn't one. The circumstances surrounding the way he received this 
> portion of soul are unique and do not mimic an actual Horcrux since 
> it was not a spell that purposely released the fragment of soul 
from 
> Voldemort. 
> 
> It is this uniqueness that quantifies Harry's situation as being 
out 
> of the typical realm of Horcrux destruction. 

Carol:

I think he's unique in having some of Voldemort's powers and in being
the Chosen One (unwittingly) "marked" by Voldemort as his equal. Only
Harry has the scar that connects him mentally, and to some degree,
emotionally, with Voldemort. Only Harry has (or had) access to his
mind and his dreams. Only Harry has ever known what it feels like to
be Voldemort.

Snow:

How would the scar alone perform a connection to Voldemort's mind and 
emotions? Blood entering that scar may indeed pass on powers but what 
about the other equal behaviors to Voldemort, how did they get passed 
on? 

Carol:

That's sufficiently unique (to modify an unmodifiable adjective), I
think. No need for a soul bit that's somehow different from those in
the Horcruxes and exempt from the need for destruction. (Surely it
will have to go beyond the Veil with the others for Voldemort to be
fully and permanently dead?)

Snow:

But Harry would be different than any other Horcrux since he is a 
living being with a free will!

Carol, who agrees with you on many points but not the main one

Snow, thanks for that
but I think we may have to call this one a draw 
for reasons of insufficient conclusive evidence; it's been fun 
though :)