[HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPDISC: HBP 23, Horcruxes

[elfundeb]

No: HPFGUIDX 160627

I should not be weighing in at this late hour (especially since Snow has
called off the duel), but here goes anyway, for what it's worth . . .

Carol wrote:
The Voldiebit, whatever it is (and it may not
be a soul bit) does not necessarily make Harry a Horcrux, any more
than Ginny was a Horcrux when Diary!Tom possessed her. The diary, even
without Ginny's soul, is different from the other Horcruxes because it
contains at least one *memory* of Tom Riddle in addition to the soul
bit. Consequently, we can't use it to determine the characteristics of
a standard Horcrux, which is merely an object (preferably a valuable,
magical object) in which a soul bit is encased. It may or may not
contain a protective curse, as the ring did.

Debbie:
I thought it was Diary!Tom's actions that convinced Dumbledore that it was a
Horcrux; in other words, it was *more* than a memory.  From ch. 23:

"A mere memory starting to act and think for itself?  A mere memory, sapping
the life out of the girl into whose hands it had fallen?  No, something much
more sinister had lived inside that book . . . a fragment of soul, I was
almost sure of it."

In other words, it was the soul bit that animated the diary.  A mere memory
would not have been able to interact with Harry, as Diary!Tom does when he
first writes in it.  It was Tom, I believe, who would not want to reveal
that he had created a Horcrux, that called it a 'memory.'  Had the diary
fallen into Dumbledore's hands, I doubt that Tom would have revealed
himself.

Dumbledore goes on to note the most sinister aspect of the diary:  "But
there could be no doubt that Riddle really wanted that diary read, wanted
the piece of his soul to inhabit or possess somebody else, so that
Slytherin's monster would be unleashed again."

In other words, it was not the memory that was unique about the Diary
horcrux.  It was that Tom had devised a means of accessing the soul within.
I see no evidence that the other soul bits do (or did) not include
memories.  The difference is that there is no way to access them; they are
too well encased.


>   Carol earlier:
>
> > But I think that if Harry thought his scar contained a soul bit,
> he'd see himself as a Horcrux and believe that he has to be
> sacrificed, which takes us back to the unsolvable dilemma of how to
> destroy himself, the last Horcrux, and kill Voldemort, too.
>

Debbie:
Actually, if Harry destroyed the last Horcrux, anyone could kill Voldemort.
But Dumbledore might have withheld the suggestion that Harry was the last
Horcrux precisely because he didn't want Harry to be focusing on his own
self-destruction.  And although I'm a big Harrycrux fan, I've come to
believe that Harry's self-sacrifice won't be necessary.



>   Carol:
> Wouldn't it be simpler if Harry simply had some of Voldemort's powers?
> That way there's no soul bit to eliminate and no chance of his
> confusing himself with a Horcrux. (As I said, I still don't see how a
> soul bit could have gotten into Harry without a spell, and if it did,
> he's to all intents and purposes a Horcrux.)
>

Debbie:
This is where it becomes clear to me that one person's answer is another
person's dilemma.  From the first point in time that we learned about the
transfer of powers, I wanted to know how this happened.  The Harrycrux
theory is the only explanation that I have every found satisfying, because
it doesn't make sense to me that powers exist apart from the owner of the
powers, which means that they are either connected to the body or the
spirit, or soul.



>   Carol:
>
> I think he had only the one power because he had no body. Once he
> could hold a wand again, he could perform any of the spells he knew
> before and could perform Legilimency.
>

Debbie:
I agree with this conclusion, though I don't think it's important to whether
Harry was a horcrux.  Logically, each soul fragment contains whatever
composes a soul, just in smaller quantities (just as each cell contains a
complete set of the individual's DNA).  If a person's soul includes its
magical powers, they will be present in each soul fragment.


>   > Snow:
> >
> > I wouldn't call it possession per se but we do know that Harry felt
> > as if he knew Tom Riddle for some reason when he first heard his
> > name. We also know that Harry was becoming a bit dark in GOF
> > (Voldemort had some type of body) and even more so in OOP (Voldemort
> > was fully resurrected to a human form) when he resorted to the use
> of an unforgivable curse on Bella before his actual possession
> attempted by Voldemort in the Atrium, which rid Voldemort's connection
> through Legilimency that was probably influencing Harry's dark side
> or, in other words, the soul fragment connection. <snip>
>
> Carol:
> Or rather, the scar connection, which, like the Dark Marks on the arms
> of the Death Eaters, grew stronger as Voldemort grew stronger. The
> soul fragment connection is an assumption on your part.
>

Debbie:
Except that in CoS Voldemort wasn't strong at all, and he was far away, in
Albania.  Moreover, recognizing Riddle's name is a cognitive act, whereas
the Dark Mark is just a specialized Protean Charm.  I don't recall that
Harry's scar was bothering him so much in CoS, so I'm not sure that would
explain why Harry recognized Riddle's name.

Debbie






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