[HPforGrownups] Re: Teaching Styles / Sorting Hat

[Shaun Hately]

No: HPFGUIDX 157936

On 5 Sep 2006 at 15:03, dumbledore11214 wrote:

> Alla:
> 
> The only problem is that in my view Snape did not try with Neville at 
> all, and that is if I am giving him my most charitable attitude - 
> namely that he is trying to teach him something and not just enjoys 
> seeing the boy in pain .

Shaun:

We don't know that Snape hasn't tried with Neville. I agree that we don't see any sign that 
he's tried, but that doesn't mean he hasn't. And quite a few of the things a teacher tries may 
not be at all observable from the outside.

I'd honestly be rather surprised if Snape hasn't tried other things with Neville. He doesn't 
seem to have found anything that works, but sometimes that is very hard to do.

Alla:
 
> IMO Snape signed Neville off as "idiot boy" from the very first 
> lesson. I don't see him trying **any** other things to teach Neville 
> before he resorts to scare tactics and that I call pure lasiness on 
> his behalf. That is again if he is thinking about teaching Neville at 
> all.

Shaun:

I disagree. If Snape had written Neville off from the first lesson, he wouldn't be caring about 
Neville was doing in third year. The fact that he is still trying to get Neville to do the right thing 
means he hasn't written him off. He obviously still thinks Neville is capable of learning this.

We don't see him doing things because the books don't revolve around the education of 
Neville Longbottom - and - frankly - the kids I teach *generally* don't see what I do for other 
kids. There are exceptions, sometimes it is obvious - but most of the time it isn't.

I'm not saying Snape has necessarily done anything for Neville - I suspect he may have done 
some minor things, but I don't think he's taken heroic steps - but I think it's an unsafe 
assumption he's done nothing.

I see a man who is still trying to get through to a student after three years. His methods may 
not be working, but he is still expending effort on Neville. He hasn't written him off.

Alla:
 
> I don't know how old the kids you teach now, but I am assuming that 
> if parents of that kid will tell you that he has nightmares where you 
> feature prominently, you would stop teaching him, no? I said many 
> times that "boggart" to me is the metaphor of person nightmares, so 
> to answer your question - yes, if child has to pay such a price for 
> education ( and from our past discussions you know how much I value 
> education), if the price for that education is child's emotional 
> health, the price for such education is too high IMO. This is of 
> course only my view and you said it yourself that scare tactics work 
> for the kid you teach, I guess it is great,but my main point is that 
> I don't see Snape trying any other tactics to teach Neville, except 
> scaring him and humiliating him.

Shaun:

The kids I was talking about were 10 and 11 year olds - and yes, if I became aware that a 
child was having nightmares about me teaching him, of course, I would stop teaching him *if* 
it was possible for me to do so.

Snape really doesn't have that luxury. He is the only potions teacher at the school. If he 
doesn't teach Neville potions, Neville will not have the opportunity to learn potions. Making a 
decision to deprive a child of an opportunity to study a subject that is compulsory, and is a 
prerequisite for further study is a major step.

When I was 14, my school made a decision to stop me studying a subject. They had good 
reasons for doing so - I was breaking down in tears in those classes. But I still resent that 
decision after 17 years because it meant I lost opportunities I would have otherwise have had 
later on - a decision to deprive a child of a subject is a pretty major one.

Yes, emotional health is important - but only to an extent. It cannot be the number one factor 
all the time, because if you make it that important, you start cutting off opportunities for a 
child. When I was 13/14 etc, I know people had some pretty grave fears about the 
consequences to my long term mental health of some of the choices I made - but if I hadn't 
been allowed to make those choices, I would have missed out on a lot of things I value today.

Alla:
 
> Oh, and I don't see that it works for him either. Somebody argued in 
> the past that in GoF we don't see Neville having such huge problems 
> with Potions, so supposedly that lesson taught him something.

Shaun:

I don't think Snape's methods work for Neville either - but that doesn't necessarily mean that 
they shouldn't have been tried. The simple fact is, sometimes, as a teacher, you're not going 
to be successful whatever you try. Sometimes whatever you try, doesn't work.

It's a reality - teaching does not have a 100% success rate. Even the best teacher fails 
sometimes.

Alla:
 
> I manage completely forgot about that detention with "cutting horned 
> toads" - paraphrase, so I disagree that the "Trevor" lesson helped 
> Neville, I think it just scared him more.

Shaun:

I think you're right - but that doesn't make it a bad thing to try.

When I made a decision to drop the hammer on one of my students recently, to take a very 
strict, zero-tolerance, punitive approach to his actions in my classroom, I didn't know if it 
would work. I actually didn't really expect it to work - I'd just completely run out of other ideas, 
and my alternatives were to try this or give up on him. And, in my case, I really didn't want to 
do it - I don't enjoy teaching like that at all.

As it happens, it seems to have worked very well - but I didn't know it was going to. I took a 
risk. It paid off for me.

Snapes attempts with Neville don't seem to have worked. That doesn't mean there was no 
point to making the attempt.

Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 
"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one
thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the 
facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be 
uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that 
need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil
Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia