Harry as a Non-crux - Soul Pieces with a Twist

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 158096

---  "Ken Hutchinson" <klhutch at ...> wrote:
>
> ---  "Steve" <bboyminn@> wrote:
> >
> > ---  "Ken Hutchinson" <klhutch@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Ken:
> > >
> > > This core soul anchored to the Earth by a horcrux
> > > idea is the way I have long held horcruxes to work.
> > > And then one day it struck me that it was totally
> > > wrong, Slughorn clearly says that part of the soul
> > > goes beyond when a horcrux owner is attacked. ...
> >
> > bboyminn:
> >
> > Could you provide a quote in which Slughorn says that?
> > Because, while there is a certain ambiguity, I don't
> > read  that in Slughorn's statement at all.
> >
> > Slughorn-
> >
> > "Well, you split your soul, you see," said Slughorn,
> > "and hide part of it in an object outside the body.
> > Then, even if one's body is attacked or destroyed, one
> > cannot die, ... ..."
> >
> > ...
> >
>
> Ken:
>
> ... What Slughorn does actually say is that you cannot
> die because *part* of your soul remains Earthbound and
> undamaged. ...
>
> Slughorn says that ... for your continued existence
> that part of the soul remains Earthbound and undamaged.
> This means that the fate of the part that was in the
> body ...does not matter. ... We know from LV's testimony
> that ...in this spectral form you retain your intellect
> and sense of self. Since Slughorn says this existence is
> guaranteed by the horcrux regardless of the fate of the
> soul bit in the horcrux owner's body, ..., Slughorn is
> saying that there is a third component of a human being
> that is the true seat of intellect and self awareness
> and this is the part that is guaranteed to survive a
> deadly attack.  For want of a better term I call this
> part the spirit.
>

bboyminn:

Well, you are extending Slughorns statement with a lot of
suppositions that the book does not support. I will agree
that there is a third component - the Spirit or sense of
Self.

On general knowledge of the soul, I don't think the
departed soul remains attached, emotionally or
intellectually, to the physical body. The soul transends
the particular vehicle it is inhabiting. Yet, when ghosts
die they are very much tied to their earthly identities. 
I would say, in fact, that it is the very thing they are
unwilling to give up. So, I agree, that we have the body,
the sense of earthly identity (spirit), and the soul.

But, I believe that the 'sense of identity' or spiritual-
Self is tied to the core soul. They are tied, but they are
not one and the same. Where ever the core soul goes, there
too goes the identity.

You interpretation of what is said is a fair
interpretation, but there is one difference between your
version and mine. Your version creates a glaring conflict
between Dumbledore and Slughorn, my version clears up that
conflict. Based on this one aspect, which one is likely to
be correct, the one that creates an error or the one that
resolves an error?

Further, I think Slughorn gives a limited context driven
explanation, while Dumbledore gives a broader more
complete explanation in a broader more complete context.
Though, admitedly, Dumbledore does not reveal all.


> Ken:
>
> ...edited...
> If Slughorn is right then LV may have no soul bit
> resident in his body. LV may pass on the instant Harry
> destroys his final horcrux. That would  make for a very
> anticlimactic ending unless Harry's scar *is* a horcrux
> that no one knows about. In that case he could go into
> a final confrontation with LV thinking that he has to
> kill him. LV could hit him with an AK right in the
> forehead. The AK could kill the soul bit in the scar but
> leave Harry unharmed while LV falls to the ground stone
> cold dead and Harry would not have a clue. Hopefully
> Hermione will survive to explain it all to him.
>

bboyminn:

As much as I don't believe this idea, I think it is still
brilliant. It is exactly the type of /twist/ ending that
JKR is likely to use. We, the readers, are stunned and
shocked because we think Harry is dead. Yet, Voldemort is
dead, how and why can that be? Then miraculously, Harry is
not dead, and even more bizarre, his scar is gone.

It sucks when I tell it here, but in the hands of a good
storyteller, it could be brilliant

That said, here is one reason why I don't support any
Harry-the Horcrux theories. It is Dumbledore that brings
us the knowledge of the scar connection and the transfer
of some of Voldemort's powers to Harry, and he seems to
have given it serious thought. It is Dumbledore who brings
us expanded knowledge and importance of the Horcruxes, and
he seems to have given this a great deal of thought and
study.

Am I to believe that Dumbledore with his deep and superior
knowledge couldn't put two and two together and arrive at
the same conclusion that many fans have? I don't see
Dumbledore as this great infalable saint, but in this
case, I have to conclude if after all his thought and
study, Dumbledore doesn't see it, then it must not be
there. I just can't believe that Dumbledore didn't at
least /try/ and put 'two and two together', that he 
hasn't at least considered and discounted the 
possibility.


> > bboyminn:
> >
> > I think the Spirit of which you speak is part of the
> > Core soul which I also, less frequently, refer to as
> > the Self-Soul.
>
> Ken:
>
> No, not in this context. The core soul is the
> Dumbledorian concept of the way horcruxes work. The
> spirit is something I have added to the Slughornian
> concept merely for convenience. ...edited..
>

bboyminn:

Here we can only rely on our general knowledge of souls
and our personal spiritual beliefs. The soul is timeless
and eternal. It is not tied to the earthly Self in the 
greater scheme of things. When the soul passes on, the 
earthly self is lost, but the greater spiritual self (the
soul) remains. Now the spiritual-self (soul) does carry 
with it the spiritual lessons it learned while tied to 
the earthly-self, but the earthly-self and identifiation
with the earthly-body are lost, or so I believe.

Now while the soul is earthbound, it is very much tied to
the earthly-self, and in this case, both are usually tied
to the earthly-body. As long as it has earthly existance,
the core-soul and earthly-self (what you call the spirit)
are bound together. Which is why the identity referred to
as 'Voldemort' inhabits his new body along with his
earthly sense of self and his core-soul.

I do see your interpretation of what Slughorn said, but I
also think you are taking a generalization, and making it
an absolutely specifically true fact.

So, all I can say is I don't agree with you, I certainly
can't say you are wrong or that you brilliant 'twist'
ending won't come true.


> Ken:
>
> Oh, and here is my wacky, random horcrux theory of the
> day. We know that a spell is required to create a
> horcrux.

bboyminn:

And that is exactly the problem, we simply don't have
enough information on the creation of the Horcrux to know
how they are or can be made. I think pre-Horcruxes and
accidental Horcruxes are not likely. I suspect the Horcrux
creation spell simply transfers an existing torn soul
piece into an external object. I suspect it requires a
specific incantation that says in effect 'soul I bind you
to this object'. So no advanced preperation, and no
transfer by accident. Of course, I can't prove that, and
that is the key point.

> Ken:
>
> ... Lily was a smart woman. Maybe Harry is a horcrux but
> *not* an accidental horcrux. Maybe the spell that Lily
> invoked to protect Harry also made him a horcrux. ...
>
> To go even farther into the realm of the wacky, if true
> this might mean that even a Muggle could have a
> horcrux. It would just require a wizard or witch willing
> to cast the spell on the Muggle's behalf.
>
> Ken
>

bboyminn:

I won't discount the possibility that Lily invoked some
type of magic at some point to protect Harry, but how
could she possibly have invoked a Horcrux? She would need
to transfer a piece of Harry's soul to do it, and how
could she do that? Not likely that a one year old has a
lot of broken soul-bits laying around.

Perhaps you speculate that Lily set up a system by which
any attackers soul would be transferred into Harry, but
that brings up timing issues. The transfer couldn't be
completed until after the soul tearing death occurred, by
then the protection would come too late; Harry would be
dead.

Also, this type of attacker-Horcrux protection, on the
assumption it could actually occur, would only give
protection against one specific attacker. Voldemort would
be unable, or perhaps just unwise, to kill Harry, but that
protection wouldn't stop Wormtail or Lucius from killing
Harry. That's a pretty limited protection.

So, I admit I can't say you are wrong because I have the
overwhelming feeling that there is some type of 'twist' in
there somewhere. Only that I don't think that it is this
particular 'twist'. Even saying that, I can't discount the
idea completely. But I do think if it were 'Harry-the
Horcrus', that Dumbledore would have foreseen it or some
aspect of it.

Still I can't deny that it is a very intriguing 'twist'.

Just a few thoughts.

Steve/bboyminn