Thoughts on the Fidelius

[Mike]

No: HPFGUIDX 158408

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboyminn at ...> wrote:
> > > bboyminn:
> > > <snip>
> > > Is seems that the 'secret' is /not/ 12 Grimmauld 
> > > Place, but 'Headquarters of the Order'. Twelve 
> > > Grimmauld Place is only relevant because it is the 
> > > /current/ location of 'headquarters'. I suspect, if 
> > > 'headquarters' moves, as it did, the secret moves 
> > > with it.
> > 
> > Random832:
> > I disagree. I think the whole sentence is the secret. 
> > If the HQ moves, the Fidelius will have to be recast. 
> > The point here, I believe, and the reason that the 
> > house is "disappeared", is because of the exact wording
> > - the headquarters _may not be found_ at that location 
> > by anyone who has not been told the secret...

Mike now:
I'm going to agree with random832 here, if the HQ moves or the Order 
disbands the Fidelius would no longer be operable. My understanding 
(read this a while ago) of the Fidelius is that three conditions 
need to be satisfied:

1.  The 'secret' must be **True**.
2.  The 'secret' must be **proprietary** to the secret maker.
3.  The 'secret' must have some **limited** knowledge.

The first is self explanatory. In the second case, both the Potters 
desire to go into hiding (from who?) and DD being the *head* of the 
Order make the 'secret' proprietary to each in turn. That is, the 
Potters can go into hiding and can decide that they want that to be 
a secret. Likewise, DD can decide that he wants the HQ of the Order 
to be a secret. 

The third condition is the one that is a problem for me. **Limited** 
is surely a subjective term. But you have to have some limits as far 
as what you could make a secret. For instance, the Potters can go 
into hiding, but can their existance be a secret? That is, could 
they possibly make a secret of the fact that they exist? Seems to me 
that this would require the elimination of knowledge for too large 
of a degree. Then there is the question of whether their existance 
is still *propietary*?

> bboyminn:
> <snip>
> The point of analysing this is because how the Potters 
> Secret is verbally constructed affects how the story,
> on page and off page, plays out.

> > > bboyminn previously:
> > > Lastly, there are endless complications with the 
> > > Charm actually being on the Potters and not the 
> > > location. First, the Secret Keeper is still alive, 
> > > so the secret /should/ still be intact,
> > 
> > Random832:
> > But the Potters are no longer in hiding. <snip> 

Mike again:
Let's apply the conditions to both 'secrets'. First 12 GP is no 
longer the property of Sirius. It occurs to me that the owner of the 
property would have to consent to the property becoming part of 
the 'secret' in order for the 'secret' to be both *true* and 
*propietary*. Else, anyone could walk up to anothers house and 
Fidelius that house as their HQ. So when Sirius dies, the question 
of ownership becomes pertinent as to whether the Fidelius remains in 
place. When Harry tells DD that he can keep the HQ there, the 
Fidelius has just been affirmed, no break in the charm. Of course, 
if the house hadn't been his to give, nothing he says in the matter 
would affect the Fidelius. If the house had been passed to Bella, 
she would have made that decision.

Now the Potters. If we take Flitwick's words into account:
> Orna: <snip>
> IIRC it was mentioned in PoA that the fidelius charm operates so  
> that you could place your face against the house - and not see the 
> Potter's there - so the house doesn't vanish <snip>

Mike:
If we read it they way Flitwick presents it the location of the 
Potters themselves was the 'secret'. How would Flitwick know? Did 
the Potters do the charm correctly? Did they make themselves the 
secret or their hiding place the secret? Well if Muggles started 
gathering around the ruined house, it seems the hiding place wasn't 
the 'secret' unless they didn't include Harry as one of the people 
hiding in that hiding place. My hypothesis follows below.

> bboyminn:
> <snip>
> If the Secret is not broken and was placed on the Potters
> then the plot remains nearly unresolvable. If the Secret
> was on the house and remains unbroken then the plot is
> still nearly unresolvable and unexplainable. 
> <snip>

Mike:
My guess, is that the Potters made their 'secret' that **The Potters 
were hiding from Lord Voldemort**. Therefore LV could not find the 
Potters without the 'secret keeper' telling him where the Potters 
could be found. The 'secret' did not apply to any one who was not 
LV. So Hagrid and Sirius were not in the dark. Neither were a lot of 
others, but they couldn't reveal the location because of the charm. 
But since Peter revealed the 'secret' to LV, the charm was no longer 
*true* and thus dissolved.

Would this make sense? If the Potters thought the charm was going to 
protect them, would they think it was only going to last for a 
couple of weeks? No, they would be expecting this to last for a long 
time. I suggest that they were not prepared to cut themselves off 
from the rest of the world for a long time. I also suggest that DD 
told them that LV was after them personally, at least that seems to 
be the common perception among the WW. Therefore, the Potters 
weren't hiding from anyone besides LV. It might seem imprudent to 
only include LV as your secrets objection, but they were young, 
cocky and still *bulletproof*, nobody else caused them concerned.

This is how I see the whole thing making sense as well as not 
causing any problems for the Trio in book 7. Did I miss anything?

Mike