Thoughts on the Fidelius

[snow15145]

No: HPFGUIDX 158412




Mike again:
Let's apply the conditions to both 'secrets'. First 12 GP is no 
longer the property of Sirius. It occurs to me that the owner of the 
property would have to consent to the property becoming part of 
the 'secret' in order for the 'secret' to be both *true* and 
*propietary*. Else, anyone could walk up to anothers house and 
Fidelius that house as their HQ. So when Sirius dies, the question 
of ownership becomes pertinent as to whether the Fidelius remains in 
place. When Harry tells DD that he can keep the HQ there, the 
Fidelius has just been affirmed, no break in the charm. Of course, 
if the house hadn't been his to give, nothing he says in the matter 
would affect the Fidelius. If the house had been passed to Bella, 
she would have made that decision.

Snow:

That makes it sound as though the Fidelius is conditional to the 
residence and I thought it was stated that it was conditional to the 
secret keeper only, which was Dumbledore in the case of Grimmald 
Place. 

Sirius dieing did not affect the Charm since he was not the secret 
keeper, which then makes perfect sense that the Fidelius was not the 
homestead but the Order. Dumbledore said that they moved the Order 
temporarily until they were certain of whom the residence belonged 
to. 

If we apply this same condition to Godric's Hollow then Peter being 
said keeper, who is not yet dead, would remain to hold the secret of 
the Fidelius and yet even muggles knew the whereabouts once the deed 
was served. No one could have found Godric's Hollow residence if 
Godric's Hollow were the protected item of the Fidelius charm. (I 
admit it doesn't make much sense the way in which we have been 
viewing it)

Mike:
If we read it they way Flitwick presents it the location of the 
Potters themselves was the 'secret'. How would Flitwick know? Did 
the Potters do the charm correctly? Did they make themselves the 
secret or their hiding place the secret? Well if Muggles started 
gathering around the ruined house, it seems the hiding place wasn't 
the 'secret' unless they didn't include Harry as one of the people 
hiding in that hiding place. My hypothesis follows below.

Snow:

Very good questions and I quite agree! 

Flitwick serves as a deterrent here by giving an example that we have 
all taken as fact. Flitwick is stating nothing more than an example 
but that does not specifically follow that it is residence that is 
protected.

But I have to ask before I read on if you feel that the Fidelius did 
not protect Harry that night? 

Mike:
My guess, is that the Potters made their 'secret' that **The Potters 
were hiding from Lord Voldemort**. Therefore LV could not find the 
Potters without the 'secret keeper' telling him where the Potters 
could be found. The 'secret' did not apply to any one who was not 
LV. So Hagrid and Sirius were not in the dark. Neither were a lot of 
others, but they couldn't reveal the location because of the charm. 
But since Peter revealed the 'secret' to LV, the charm was no longer 
*true* and thus dissolved.

Snow:

First, Peter is alive and is the secret keeper so no one could find 
Godric's Hollow if the Fidelius were placed on the residence unless 
Peter died. We know the residence could be found so the charm was not 
placed with Godric's Hollow, would be a fair assumption
I think you 
agree with this. 

Second, James and Lily are in a situation where Sirius is suggesting 
the use of Peter as secret keeper in place of himself (at the last 
minute)
so they may have been a bit apprehensive of including Harry 
under that specific charm (other protections may have been applied to 
Harry's protection that they felt more secure of). 

Lastly, when you state, "the Potters were hiding from Lord Voldemort" 
I'm only to guess that you include Harry in the scenario sinse he is 
a Potter. 

Mike:

Would this make sense? If the Potters thought the charm was going to 
protect them, would they think it was only going to last for a 
couple of weeks? No, they would be expecting this to last for a long 
time. I suggest that they were not prepared to cut themselves off 
from the rest of the world for a long time. I also suggest that DD 
told them that LV was after them personally, at least that seems 
to be the common perception among the WW. Therefore, the Potters 
weren't hiding from anyone besides LV. It might seem imprudent to 
only include LV as your secrets objection, but they were young, 
cocky and still *bulletproof*, nobody else caused them concerned.

Snow:

This might be were I part company completely because the Potter's 
were not only protecting themselves but more so their child. Even if 
you take the prophecy out of the equation, you can't dismiss the 
protection factor of parents for their child. Especially if James and 
Lily were not aware of the prophecy because they would then be 'thee' 
intended victims and would want to protect the baby that much more 
merely being parents. 

If James and Lily were aware of the prophecy, I don't think much 
would have changed accept that they would have made alternate plans 
for the child's protection separate from their own so Harry would be 
that much more protected if Voldemort managed to infiltrate their own 
defense.

Snow, thinking Mike and I may be on the same page but coloring the 
picture differently.