Snape at end of OotP (WAS Re: Who was responsible for Sirius' death? ...)

[Dana]

No: HPFGUIDX 167585

zgirnius:
> One reason she may have DD defend Snape's actions is that the 
> person to whom he is talking (Harry) already blames Snape, and in a 
> way that is not rational. Snape and Sirius participated in a rather 
> nasty argument at Christmas, and Harry bases his blame of Snape on 
> that incident. I do not think this can be tied directly to Sirius 
> going to the Ministry. Snape did express a frustration Sirius was 
> feeling and threw it in his face, but first, that was months 
> before, and second, Sirius would have gone anyway, in my opinion. 
<snip>

Dana: 
If you read that scene carefully then you notice that it was Harry 
that caused it by looking at Sirius for help. That is what triggered 
Sirius to act not due to anything Snape did. That is why Harry will 
never use the mirror because he now knows Sirius will immediately 
react to anything Harry asks for, not because Snape is truly able to 
goad Sirius (sure he doesn't backs off after Snape reacts too). That 
is only Harry trying to blame it on Snape. 


zgirnius:
> You realize Harry forgot Snape twice, don't you? After repeated 
> attempts at mental communication with Snape and the cryptic Padfoot 
> comment he threw at Snape as the later departed, he never even 
> bothered to check what the only Order member at Hogwarts had done 
> about the warning. The fact that Harry had confirmation of Sirius's 
> absence in the late afternoon, after all, does not mean Sirius was 
> still in danger at nightfall, several hours later. 
<snip>

Yes, but this is again Snape fault by the way he reacts to Harry's 
attempt to notify him. Would you believe after such a reaction the 
man is going to look into things? I wouldn't. That is why Harry still 
thinks he must act himself because he could not believe Snape would 
take any actions on his behalf (or Sirius's) 

You lost me with Sirius absence is not an indication he would still 
be in danger several hours later. Harry believes LV got Sirius and he 
heard LV tell Sirius there will be enough time for him to die later 
and Harry is monitoring the scar link and expects it to hurt if LV 
kills Sirius off. For Harry this is real especially after Kreacher 
says he is not there and LV would never let Sirius go, at least not 
in a living form. 

Snape's idea is just really strange because what changed between the 
time, Harry gave Snape the cryptic message and him going into the 
Forest? Snape never came back not even after Harry was already gone. 
We do not hear Ron, Luna, Ginny or Neville say that Snape came back. 
If Snape had come back, he could have ordered the group (just Harry's 
group) to his office and have them tell him, what has been going on. 
He is head of House and he could have ordered these four being handed 
over to him. He could tell Ron and Neville to go look for Harry and 
tell him everything is okay at HQ. But he did none of all that. None 
of these actions would have given away his spy cover. That is my big 
problem, Snape does nothing and the explanations DD gives of his 
account does not add up in relation to the amount of time that have 
passed between Snape seeing Harry in Umbridge office and them 
departing to the DoM and him only then alerting the Order.  
By the time the Order gets there Harry has been running down the DoM 
a pretty long time. Why did it take Snape that long to realize Harry 
was no longer at Hogwarts? If you do not want to believe in a ESE 
doing this on purpose then the only other explanation would be that 
Snape did not care and did not think enough of Harry's abilities to 
do things and come up with solutions others wouldn't especially with 
the others there too.   

zgirnius:
> How does Snape know they are off to the Forest in time to follow?
> His first thought, quite properly, was to verify that Sirius was 
> safe. Voldemort strikes me as a greater potential danger than 
> Dolores Umbridge had shown herself to be thus far. The removals you 
> credit to her involved the Minister of Magic and a number of 
> Aurors, none of whom were present at Hogwarts.
<snip> 

Dana: 
Because DD tells us so. He tells us that Snape realized where Harry 
had gone (DoM) when he failed to return from his trip with Umbridge 
and that after he alerted the Order, he had intended to search for 
Harry in the Forest. This can only be Snape's account of things 
because there are no other witnesses. Even if he heard it from Draco 
(which would make it even more suspicious Snape did not go look for 
them right away as he would also know Umbridge tried to Crucio Harry 
and that it was her who send the Dementors earlier that year and that 
Hermione made up some story about a weapon in the forest) then it 
took Snape to long to check in on Harry because he would only have 
heard it from Draco after Ron, Luna, Ginny and Neville were already 
gone. 

So if Snape intention was to check on Sirius he never intended to 
tell Harry as soon as possible. Or to get back there to keep watch as 
soon as possible. 

It doesn't matter if Umbridge did not remove DD and the rest herself, 
it was her that initiated it and therefore she is a potential threat. 
If Snape just based his actions on a lot of assumptions then he is 
not such a great thinker after all and a little full of himself that 
what he assumes is always correct. Especially with his 4 years of 
many Harry experiences, he should know by now his assumptions are 
almost always wrong even if he judged the overall situation right.  

zgirnius:
> I would be surprised too, were I Snape. I imagine Snape got the 
> message loud and clear two or three times in the office scene, and 
> figured that after repeatedly tossing the problem to him, Harry 
> would check with him to learn what he, Snape, had done about it.

Dana:
You would? And would you believe the person you told it too would 
actually check in after such a response. 
Snape should know especially after the SWM incident that Harry would 
not just believe Snape is there for him and that it would take just a 
little more effort but to me Snape did not care about Harry's state 
of mind, he just never envisioned the kid would get off the Hogwarts 
grounds and thus underestimated Harry for the millionth time. 

It was not his call to just assume anything. He is an Order Member 
and Harry is in the care of someone fighting the Order all year and 
we see her put people in danger while there at Hogwarts, with or 
without help from other MoM members. If she had been successful in 
having Harry reveal Sirius location then it was not only Sirius who 
was in danger because she would have proof the Order was hiding a 
convicted criminal and is reason to lock them up and this would bring 
Harry in even more danger because he would no longer have the Order 
to protect him or at least a very few members. 

The only thing I can think off why JKR inserted the Kreacher element 
into that scene, is because there was no other place to have it 
revealed that it was Kreacher that betrayed Sirius and Harry. 

To me, it not even makes sense that DD takes his mighty time to 
uncover the truth from Kreacher, instead of going to the DoM straight 
away and worry about that later. 

So either JKR did some sloppy writing all through OotP and why the 
book seems such a mess with all these events that make no sense at 
all if you look at them closely or she deliberately have let these 
man made these decisions because it will be important later and why 
these actions stand out so significantly or at least to me. 

For me OotP as a book within the series ruined my liking of the 
series, it turned it into an obsession driven by frustration about 
all these things that so obviously should have happened but didn't or 
shouldn't have happened but did. I hope DH can enlighten my feelings 
about it or at least help me to let go ;o)

JMHO 

Dana