Nitwit? - Remus John Lupin

[wynnleaf]

No: HPFGUIDX 167998


> > wynnleaf
> 
> > Exactly!  Lupin not tattling on his friends pales to 
> > insignificance when compared to his willingness to -- for 
> > years -- make a mockery of Dumbledore's giving him a chance 
> > to be a student at Hogwarts and yet keep Hogwarts and the 
> > surrounding population safe from a werewolf.
> 
> Goddlefrood:
> 
> I did not overlook it, I simply failed to mention it ;). It all 
> goes to the code of the schoolyard. The kids were having fun, 
> why tell anyone who might stop them? 

wynnleaf
You still don't seem to get the point.  Lupin didn't have to "tell
anyone who might stop them."  All he had to do was stop.  Period.  Who
said he had to tell on anyone?  As far as I can see, that's something
you brought up, not me or pippin.  

 Goddlefrood:
Irresponsible, yes, but by 
> the time Remus returned to Hogwarts he mostly :) remembered to 
> take his Wolfsbane Potion. A sign of maturity and that certainly 
> should not be ignored ;;)

wynnleaf
Considering that literally millions of people are able to remember to
take prescribed medicine which makes them feel better, I really don't
see how that's some sort of notable sign of maturity that precludes
Lupin being irresponsible or weak enough to make choices which can
risk the lives of Harry and or betray the good guys.

 Goddlefrood:
> Alla's argument re JKR's comments relative to Remus being her 
> idea of Remus being a good enough teacher for her own daughter 
> also seems prescient to me. 

wynnleaf
As I've tried to point out, I don't necessarily think the idea of
Evil!Lupin fits with what we know.  After all, according to JKR,
Lupin's big weakness is in allowing his friends too much latitude,
which just doesn't seem to go along with "cares so little about his
friends that he intentionally betrays them to be killed."

On the other hand, this argument that JKR likes Lupin, and therefore
she can't possibly use him to betray Harry or the Order has *already*
been proved wrong.  JKR has *already* had Lupin, in POA, betray
Dumbledore's trust for many months in a way that risked the lives of
all the school children and in particular Harry.  So we know for
certain that JKR can and has made Lupin irresponsible and for purely
his own benefit, risk lives and betray Dumbledore.  The notion that
her "liking" Lupin will somehow keep her from having him do this again
makes no sense.

As I said, JKR liking Lupin, or thinking he's a good teacher does
*not* equate to "he's responsible and trustworthy."  JKR has already
*proven* that by making him irresponsible and untrustworthy in POA.

JKR quote 
> "If you had to choose one teacher from your books to teach your 
> child, who would it be and why? 
> 
> A. It would be Professor Lupin, because he is kind, clever, and 
> gives very interesting lessons."

wynnleaf
And yet she still had him betray Dumbledore's trust and put Harry and
all the school at risk, purely for his own benefit.  So obviously
being "kind, clever, and gives very interesting lessons," isn't the
same as "responsible, trustworthy and self-sacrificing."  

> Goddlefrood: 
> We readers do cut Lupin some slack, that's not to say he may 
> not do something contrary to Harry's interest, but I'm failing 
> to see what it might be so far.
> 
> His running with the werewolves is of interest. They presumably 
> run around when not transformed, do they, causing havoc with 
> their teaching and other skills? I have already said he has 
> flaws, but to extrapolate those flaws to the point where he's 
> evil is simply clutching at straws, IMO, naturally ;).

wynnleaf
And I *don't* say that Lupin is intentionally being evil.  Pippin does
hold that view.  But I don't think it fits with what JKR has said
about his attitude toward his friends.  

But Lupin has already shown us that a character doesn't have to be
evil to put Harry's life at risk, betray Dumbledore, and expose the
school to life-threatening danger.  A character needn't be "evil" to
put his own self-interest ahead of the lives and safety of others --
Lupin's already shown that.

As regards the werewolves, Lupin refers to them in HBP as his
"equals."  In OOTP we learn that Lupin was very upset at the
restrictions that the MOM placed on werewolves.  In OOTP, we also see
him acting sympathetically to a werewolf at St. Mungos.  In HBP we
learn through Lupin that werewolves have a very hard time even getting
food without killing for it.  Lupin may hate Fenrir, but that doesn't
mean he hates all werewolves.  I think we have enough evidence to
conclude that he doesn't hate all werewolves.  Therefore it would be
completely within Lupin's character to become friends with the
werewolves he is with under cover and to afford them the same kind of
latitude that he did the Marauders, especially if he was particularly
sympathetic to their plight -- which we already know he is.  It would
be perfectly within his character to want to hold on to the goodwill
of werewolf friends just as he wanted to maintain the goodwill of
other friends.  And we've already seen that Lupin is willing to risk
the lives of others in order to keep the goodwill of those whose
goodwill he desires.

> > wynnleaf
> 
> > Sirius *does* mention that he and James suspected Lupin.  But 
> > even though he was cataloging Peter's crimes, he never said 
> > anything that even hints that he considered one of Peter's 
> > crimes to be spreading discord or suspicions among the friends.
> 
> > That, imo, is fairly decent evidence that Peter did not spread 
> > any such suspicions.
> 
> Goddlefrood:
> 
> There were quite enough in the catalogue for Sirius not to have 
> got to them all ;). 

wynnleaf
On this, we shall have to agree to disagree.  Zero canon, the perfect
place for Sirius to comment on Peter raising suspicions and yet Sirius
mentions nothing, are enough for me to consider a theory too weak. 
Most especially when I consider your argument circular, as I pointed
out before.  

 Goddlefrood:
Certainly the fact that Remus was a werewolf 
> and ostensibly untrustworthy from a wizarding world meta
> standpoint can not be overlooked, but to this reader there 
> should be more to it than that. 

wynnleaf
While characters may consider Lupin untrustworthy because of being a
werewolf, that is not, as I understand it, any part of either my or
pippin's theories.  Lupin is untrustworthy because he's been proven to
be untrustworthy.  Whether his willingness to sacrifice the safety of
others for his own benefit is due to some weaknesses stemming from his
dealing with a socially abhorrent disease, or whether he's just like
that for other reasons, isn't the point.  The point is that he *is*
untrustworthy, not because he's a werewolf, but because he has made
too many long-term very untrustworthy decisions.

 Goddlefrood:
Peter fits the case, despite 
> the lack of direct canon support.

wynnleaf
As does Lupin, *with* some canon support.

 Goddlefrood:
> Oh, and I too hope we are in for some surprises in DH, but I do 
> not expect Remus to be one of them.

wynnleaf
Nevertheless, your argument earlier was that Harry wouldn't get any
*more* surprise problems (other than he's already got at the end of
HBP), and therefore Lupin wouldn't betray Harry.  No unexpected
problems for Harry equates to no major suspense.  I don't buy that. 
JKR loves it too much.

> Goddlefrood:
> 
> Agreed, she tends to surprise us, but not so much in respect
> of characters' loyalties. 

wynnleaf
I suppose it depends on how you look at it.  Obviously Quirrell was
thought by Harry to be loyal, but turned out not to be.  Tom Riddle
was trusted by Harry, but turns out to be Voldemort and tries to kill
Harry.  Scabbers was thought to be an ordinary, even faithful rat, but
turns out to be a traitor.  Fake!Moody was thought to be very
supportive of Harry and turned out to be Barty Jr, seeking his death.
 Kreacher was known to be nasty, but was at least thought to be "safe"
in that he was bound to do whatever Sirius said and no character,
including Harry, suspected that Kreacher was actively betraying the
Order.  Further, Harry trusted Kreacher to tell him the truth about
Sirius, and Harry's trust was proven misguided.  Umbridge, while
always known to be an incredibly nasty woman, was surprisingly
revealed to be the one who sent the dementors to attack Harry (she may
not count, since Harry never trusted anything about her and her
loyalties were never really in question).  And in HBP, Snape was
"revealed" to be a "loyal" Death Eater and murderer of Dumbledore. 
While Snape will likely turn out to be loyal to Dumbledore after all,
it's clear that for *Harry* Snape was the "traitor" of that year.  And
it's Harry that ultimately finds his trust or his good opinion of
someone misplaced or finds himself having been betrayed, each and
every year.  

wynnleaf