Nitwit? - Remus John Lupin

[wynnleaf]

No: HPFGUIDX 168086


>
> Dana:
> Sorry to bud in but you know what I really don't get, why do 
people 
> feel that Snape's supposed bad childhood would excuse his actions 
in 
> to adulthood? 

wynnleaf
I've been searching, but still can't find where any posters *lately* 
have been saying that his wrong actions in adulthood are "excused."  
Perhaps you could point me to it.

Dana
> Lupin had to overcome a great deal more then Snape ever had to 
deal 
> with but we don't see him bullying little defenseless children or 
try 
> to have someone's soul sucked out, because Greyback destroyed his 
> chances for a normal life. 

wynnleaf
First, we don't know that Lupin had "a great deal more than Snape" 
to overcome, because we really don't know enough about either.  
However, from JKR's comments and what we see in Lupin's actions, his 
past *did* help shape his weaknesses.  His weaknesses are not the 
same as Snape's.  He doesn't act terribly bitter, and insult his 
students.  On the other hand, we haven't seen Snape risking his 
student's lives in order to keep in Dumbledore's good will.  On the 
contrary, we see him risking his life.  So shouldn't we be wondering 
why Lupin couldn't get over his past rather than allow his 
weaknesses to endanger the lives of little kids?

And which is worse?  Willingness to endanger the lives of hundreds 
of children just so you can keep the goodwill of the headmaster?  Or 
willingness to be sarcastic and insulting?  Neither are very 
admirable.  Snape injured the feelings of some of his students, but 
even Neville didn't seem permenantly hurt by it.  Lupin could have 
gotten his students killed, and then -- well, they wouldn't be hurt, 
they'd just be dead.

Dana
> Sirius might have acted as an arrogant snob when he was in school 
but 
> we know by the looks of his mother's portray, the grim look of GP 
and 
> him even deciding to run away at age 16, that his home life was 
> anything but a breeze and he then spends most of his adult life, 
in 
> the most depressing place one could imagine while actually being 
> innocent

wynnleaf
You've just told us the bad stuff he went through, and I agree.  But 
are you trying to say Sirius overcame all that and became an 
exemplary person?  What evidence do we have of his overcoming it?  
He'd been out of Azkaban for a year when he made the comment *as an 
adult* that Snape deserved the werewolf prank that almost took his 
life.  He insults Snape when he's visiting in his home -- and yes 
Snape insults Sirius, too, but in the one example we see, Sirius 
starts it and is the first person to draw his wand.  Sure, Sirius is 
willing to fight for the Order, but so is Snape.  So really, I don't 
see the evidence that Sirius overcame the problems of his youth.  He 
continues to do some reckless things even into OOTP, some of which 
(like going to the train station) affect his ability to be of help 
to the Order.

Dana
 but oh no, dear sweet Snape is so misunderstood and was 
> humiliated so deeply because he was some kid's Boggert and then 
this 
> Boggert!Snape was dressed in woman's cloths? The outrage, how 
could 
> they do that to this poor man (well maybe because he was the cause 
of 
> this kid's fear in the first place). 

wynnleaf
The question in this case really isn't is it understandable that 
Neville's boggart was Snape -- it was.  Nor is it a question of 
whether or not Snape "deserved" to be made fun of in Lupin's class.  
The real question is whether Lupin was doing a responsible thing, as 
a teacher in the school, to handle such a difficulty between a 
student and another teacher in such a public way that opened the 
other teacher to public ridicule.  I don't actually think it's any 
teacher's place to make a judgement call as to whether a fellow 
teacher should be put up for ridicule in front of the students.

Dana
> And what does this misunderstood hero do? He bullies the kid even 
> further and fiercer then before and when he isn't able to punish 
the 
> insulter, in what he considers an appropriate way, he outs him, 
> ruining his already hard life even further. 

wynnleaf
As I outlined in another post recently, Lupin came to POA already 
having a hard time holding a job because of his condition and the 
Ministry knew about it as well, so it was hardly a secret.  The 
students and most parents probably didn't know, but obviously many 
others must have known.  Further, Umbridge's restrictions began 
during POA (we only hear about them in OOTP).  Snape "outing" Lupin 
was only really as regards telling the kids, who would of course 
tell their parents.  And since Lupin *had* put children at deadly 
risk, don't you think it was the responsible thing to do to blow the 
whistle?  Lupin risked the lives of every kid in that school.  But 
he's so very nice, and of course always sorry (not sorry enough to 
confess all to Dumbledore, however), that he should just stay on and 
hopefully never risk kids lives again, right?

Besides that, it wouldn't shock me to discover that Dumbledore asked 
him to resign.  Lupin was not very relaxed around Dumbledore later 
that morning when it was time to leave.  And Dumbledore didn't act 
particularly sorry to see him go.

Dana
No, really we should have 
> some compassion for Snape because maybe his father hit his mother 
> (and this all just from one image of a man shouting at a woman 
while 
> not even knowing it indeed was his father at all)

wynnleaf
Actually, that's not what I tend to think of, although it's possible 
he did have such an abusive home.  What we *know* is that he was 
bullied for years by a group of four students who tended to work 
together and had a convenient map so that they could easily target 
him (or anyone else) unsuspectingly.  Although we see lots of 
evidence of the Marauders getting in trouble (detention records and 
a few comments by, I believe, McGonagall), we have no evidence that 
Snape was out trying to attack them other than the "gave as good as 
he got" (2, 3, or 4 against 1?) excuse that Sirius and Lupin 
attempt.  James, when he needs to give some excuse to Lily, can't 
come up with *anything* as a reason for attacking Snape, other 
than "he exists." And we know that things went so far that these 
bullies (either one or more planning it) almost killed him.  
Regardless of Sirius' comment that Snape "ran with" a crowd that 
became Death Eaters, these seem to be people several years older 
than him, and we see no other evidence that he had any friends to 
help back him up in the bullying.  I think being unmercifully 
bullied, where you're having to watch your back for years and 
someone finally tries to kill you is pretty bad.  Hard to blame him 
for wanting them out of Hogwarts.   

Dana
> And of course let's not forget him not getting over his hatred for 
> James and him allowing himself to take it out on the man's son and 
> even worse, 

wynnleaf
On this I agree.  It is very wrong to take out one's dislike of a 
father on the son.  

By the way, notice how Hagrid takes out his dislike of Vernon on 
Dudley in the first book, even though Hagrid would have had no idea 
whether Dudley deserved it or not.  But Hagrid is loved, so it's 
okay.  But really, it's never okay.  We readers don't mind, because 
we dislike Dudley and love Hagrid.  

Dana
when the kid loses the one person he was more closely 
> connected with then anybody else in his short life, he rubs it in 
by 
> having the kid re-write their detention cards 

wynnleaf
This is pure speculation on your part.  It could be that Snape 
having Harry do the Marauder's era of detention files was in part to 
point out to Harry the mistake of following down that path -- the 
indescriminant hexing in the halls stuff, which Harry was beginning 
to do in HBP.  Remember that even Dumbledore, immediately following 
Sirius' death, had no problem with going over some of Sirius' 
mistakes with Harry. 

In fact, I thought it was notible that Snape did *not* mention 
Sirius to Harry by way of insults, etc.  I almost expected it when 
he met him outside the castle after the Hogwarts Express, but Snape 
doesn't do this.

Dana
but for some reason 
> everybody insulting or humiliated Snape is condemned because the 
guy 
> had such a bad childhood and was hung by his feet a couple of 
times. 

wynnleaf
Lupin's actions aren't right or wrong because of Snape's childhood.  
But the fact that it was *Lupin* himself who is in part responsible 
for that childhood *does* make a difference when we see him 
continuing to take advantage of opportunities to ridicule Snape as 
an adult.  

Dana
> If I am not mistaken Snape seemed to be the only one that always 
gets 
> away with everything

wynnleaf
I'm not sure what you mean by "gets away with everything."  
Obviously he doesn't in the books.  And it's the rare reader who, 
even if thinking Snape is loyal and has admirable qualities, thinks 
that Snape is perfectly fine in insulting students.  Hey, even those 
of us that *like* him think he can be pretty petty and cruel 
sometimes.  Perhaps you could explain what "gets away with" actually 
means.   

Dana
, even murder while he is the only one behaving 
> in such a despicable way, it is no wonder, people do not know 
where 
> his loyalties lie. 

wynnleaf
I am very hopeful that JKR will ultimately show us that trying to 
judge someone's loyalties by how nice they are isn't always the best 
way.