Requiescat in Pace: Unforgivables

[Dennis Grant]

No: HPFGUIDX 174801

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lee Kaiwen <leekaiwen at ...> wrote:

> First, Harry himself made his purpose crystal clear. "Whaddya know.
> You really DO have to mean it!" Mean what? "I torture." His purpose
> was torture. 

No, his purpose was to *inflict pain with intent to incapacitate*

Which is what, per canon, he DID.


> We're talking torture, here, Dennis. Not killing. Since you assert it, 
> please tell us how many "legal definitions" of torture there are. 
> Torture in self-defense? Natch. Torture in the line of duty? Doesn't 
> exist. Torture by neglect? Nada.

>From the United States Criminal Code:

"an act committed by a person acting under the color of law
specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or
suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful
sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control."


Note the phrases "colour of law" and "within custody or physical control"

The UN definition is similar. I don't have time to quote it (the
source I have isn't copy and paste-able) but it also discusses the
concepts of "public official" and "custody"

I'm willing to waive the requirement for a public official or the
seeming sanction of law - a person can torture another in the private
sector as well. But the concept of the victim being in custody is a
core part of the definition.

> > Harry doesn't torture Carrow; he incapacitates him by inflicting
> > intense pain on him.
> 
> Ah. The end justifies the means. What happened to Stupefy?

Who knows? Carrow is a powerful Death Eater and is known to Harry as
such. There is nothing in the canon that suggests Stupify is
unblockable - indeed, we have several examples of the "unblockable"
Avera Kedavera being blocked or deflected. 

> There WAS no "heat of battle". There was just Carrow, spitting on 
> McGonagall, and Harry tucked safely away under his Cloak, until he 
> stepped out and ambushed Carrow.

Harry is in the presence of Carrow, a known enemy. Harry knows he is
going to fight Carrow, somehow. Battle has been joined.

A tank is coming down the road. You are safely under cover where the
tank can't see you, but you are also holding the anti-tank rocket. A
rocket that has a very short range, and must be fired from a specific
aspect to be effective. Are you going to jump out in front of the tank
and challenge it to a duel? No, you are going to slink around, keeping
out of sight, until an opportunity presents itself (or until you can
move yourself into firing position. Battle has started the second you
recognize the target and your duty, independent of the tank realizing it.
 
> Stupefy, Dennis. Stupefy. It ALWAYS works.

Where in canon is this stated?

Look, have you ever been in a fight? A real fight, not a couple of
kids pounding on each other in a schoolyard?

Getting hit *hurts* - surprisingly so, when you see the big haymakers
that are routinely traded in the movies. You get tagged with a solid
punch, and the world just stops.

But over time, you can learn to take punches. It still huts like hell,
but the shock value lessens. You can learn to fight through it.

>From personal experience, I know I can take hits up to a certain power
level, and I know I can inflict hits of sufficient power to seriously
dissuade most people who haven't been hit properly before from
continuing with whatever course of action led me to hit them.

But you put me up against Mike Tyson, and not only is there NO WAY I
can take one of his hits (I just don't have the musculature; he'd
likely kill me) but even my best hit is not likely to touch him (he
DOES have the musculature)

If I have to take down Mike Tyson, I'm not going to punch him - even
though my punches might have been 100% effective to this point. I'm
going to use the most powerful weapon I can access - because I won't
get a second chance.

In canon, Lupin chews Harry out for fighting with insufficiently
powerful spells. Well, it seems Harry learned his lesson because he
used the most powerful, non-lethal spell he had at his disposal
against Carrow.

And it worked.

And then, once he had Carrow in his custody, he turned it off, thus
avoiding crossing the line from necessary force into torture.

Agsin, I have absolutely zero problems with this. Harry. Never. Tortures.

DG