Ungrateful Werewolf ( Was Re: Character Given A Reprieve)

[frumenta]

No: HPFGUIDX 175604

Ungrateful Werewolf ( Was Re: Character Given A Reprieve) 




Lanval:

Ah, back to the Shrieking Shack. :)
I admit I was surprised too to have the infamous prank
happen before SWM. I'm moreover having a hard time finding anything
definitve in the books that made us all believe it was a sixth year
event? Anyone find it yet?

Mim:

I think that this guess has hinged on Snape saying that Sirius was 
capable of murder at the age of sixteen in PoA. So Sirius was 16 in 
his fifth year or JKR had an "Oh, maths" moment. Either is possible.


Lanval
But I'm rather glad. For one thing it tells us without doubt that
what happened in the SS was no life-shattering moment, no turning
point for anyone.

Snape? A mere couple of weeks, if at all, after it happened, he's no
traumatized lamb. He seems more upset about Lily defending James
(and calling Snape 'ungrateful'. Ouch. *g*) than about the danger he
was in. No, it's all about exposing James & Co for not being 'as
wonderful as everyone thinks', about James fancying Lily.

Mim:
And Snape knowing that Sirius tried to feed him to a werewolf might 
have some reason to think that Lily needs the heads up. For this and 
for James fancying her which I'm sure she has noticed. And because 
Snape is able to speak to his friend about this event and not 
cowering in a corner in a fetal position, or something... how 
exactly does this translate to you that Snape was not traumatised?
Lily says she doesn't like his friends. He tries to tell her what 
her housemates are up to and he has to listen to the added insult of 
how James saved him from the monster in the Shrieking Shack.



Lanval:
Remus, the other victim? In SWM, we see a calm boy, worried
about his OWLS. He jokes with his friends about werewolf questions.
When Sirius wishes it was full moon, he says, 'darkly': "You might,"
and asks him to test him on some stuff. That is all. No
estrangement, no near-hatred, no unforgiving anguish. Seems like
Fandom and fanfic writers got that one SO wrong. I did too. (On an
interesting side note, being that 99.9% of fanfic writers and
readers seem to be women... maybe we really, really don't understand
how the minds of teenage boys work?)
[snip]
If you want to argue this from a moral standpoint, yes, it was
reckless, stupid, and dangerous... and Snape was even MORE stupid
and reckless to actually follow Sirius' advice, *knowing* there was
a WEREWOLF lurking inside!! Which has now become canon, yay. I
didn't type my fingers to shreds for nothing, arguing for it. *g*

Mim:
I'm often in doubt about JKR knowing how any minds might work but 
that's a gripe for another day.
In SWM I see Remus as a coward (a theme with him in the books) who 
doesn't do what is right because he wants to be liked. And he is 
worried about his secret. When James calls Peter thick for not 
getting the signs of a werewolf right, Remus implores him to keep 
his voice down. 
 Snape already knows his secret because of Sirius and NO there is no 
definitive proof that Snape absolutely 100% knew that at the end of 
the tunnel he would meet a transformed werewolf. He might have 
thought that Remus was restrained. Or that his werewolf theory was 
wrong. There are many things that Snape might be in the books but 
stupid is not one of them and there are pranks and there are 
criminal acts. To use an analogy from the new generation that I 
think might somewhat cover this, do you really see Ron sending Draco 
to meet Aragog for fun? Or Grawp? Without the added dimension that 
Remus was Sirius' friend and he could have killed someone.

Lanvan:
To come back to your question, maybe we overestimate the power of
the secret, too? Snape, while not telling Lily "I was right! He IS a
werewolf!" nevertheless presses his 'theory', as he has repeatedly
done before. Lily? Is just not interested, even though Lupin lives
in her House. Her reaction is rather: So? Why are you so obsessed
with them? After all they don't use Dark Magic, like your friends do!

Clearly Lily sees this as a worse offense than sneaking out at
night, and being friends with a werewolf.

Mim:
Lily doesn't know at the time that Remus is a werewolf. There is no 
canonical evidence of that at all. And you've really misunderstood 
me here. I'm not saying that Snape thinks Lily should disapprove of 
the Marauders, she already does anyway. But he does mention his 
theory once more and my theory here is that his motivation is to 
protect Lily. It might not be, maybe he's just being defensive 
because she thinks his friends are jerks and he wants to whine to 
someone about that Lupin who gets away with everything. But as far 
as he knows Lily doesn't know Remus is a werewolf and he doesn't 
want his friend to become werewolf food.

Lanvan:
Perhaps the Marauders felt that since the staff was already in on
the secret, it would not have too much of an impact if students
found out? The adults knew, Lupin's presence was officially
sanctioned, what could the other kids possibly do about it? The
Marauders are already familiar with Werewolf!Lupin, they themselves
were never all that aghast when they found out (I assume), why would
anyone go into convulsions over it? Again, keeping in mind what a
dangerous place Hogwarts & surroundings is, even without the
presence of a single young werewolf in their midst. There's worse
out in the Forbidden Forest.

Mim:

So the Marauders said, oh, well, let's just tell everybody that 
Remus here is a werewolf? Somehow seeing everyday wizard Ron's (a 
Gryffindor, no less) reaction to Remus being a werewolf, even though 
he was someone he liked I don't think that everyone would have been 
ok with it. And it would only take an owl home or a casual mention 
to mom and dad and Dumbledore would be in deep ish and Remus out of 
school. Somehow I really don't think they shared that little secret.

And I don't see why the Marauders had to add to all the dangerous 
things in the Forbidden Forest. Yes, it's a tale of a great 
friendship, all for one and one for all. Lupin had endured 
transformations since his fifth year, did they have to become fun 
too? I have a serious problem with them as I really don't think they 
viewed anyone outside their little group as worthy of even being 
alive. Or not getting mauled. But I guess most Marauders fans fancy 
themselves as part of their little gang rather than Lupin-food so 
it's good. 




Lanval:
Someone, please explain that one to me. I've heard this argument for
so long. How, if James had no idea that Sirius had told Snape (and
Sirius would have never lied about this), and if DD/the staff had no
idea that there was some sneaking out at night taking place during
fifth year... did James 'save his own hide'? He was quite simply NOT
involved, not responsible, not part of it in any way.

Mim:

Not part of it in any way? James had heard what Sirius had done. If 
he did nothing and it came out that he knew and if Remus did indeed 
maul Snape how on earth would he not share even some responsibility?

Lanvan:

Something just occurred to me, and maybe my mind's just in complete
confusion right now... how exactly did DD find out about the prank?

Mim:
I'm guessing Snape went to him and told him. Or news traveled, how 
on earth did Lily know anything about James saving Snape? I don't 
have the best opinion of Dumbledore but I would guess he had some 
idea of what was going on in his own school, even missing how Remus 
had repayed his kindness when he let him study in Hogwarts by 
running around with his friends doing... well... fun animal stuff 
that was totally the bestest time ever for him.

I always wondered how come Moony and Padfoot never saw Prongs and 
said "Yum, dinner, we can take him," but that's my mind being a 
little funny...



Lanval:
Let's keep in mind, shall we, that Snape was not punished. Not for
1. sneaking out at night, breaking school rules
2. sticking his nose in and interfering with school-approved business
3. Entering a tunnel that was clearly, absolutely, without a doubt
off limits to all students save Remus Lupin
4. Endangering himself, and another student

Mim: 
Using "punished" in a general sense here in that Dumbledore made him 
promise not to tell and that was it.
And... I'll give you that the attempted murder charge for Sirius is 
a little iffy. Snape didn't have to listen to him. But Dumbledore 
never tells Snape that he should get over himself and no one tried 
to kill him. And saying that Snape endangered another student is 
just nuts. James didn't have to save him.






Mim:

> I'm not surprised that Remus didn't stop his friends from bullying
> Snape. He didn't have any control over them really. They are
> completely callous about reveavling his secret in SWM, out in
> public.


Lanval:
Huh? Canon, please, that they are 'revealing it in public'? They are
sitting together, no one else is near, save Pensieve!Harry.

Mim:
Again, Remus implores James to be quiet. I'm guessing it's not 
because of Pensieve!Harry.

Mim:
Sirius says he's bored and wished it was the full moon... i
> mean, lycanthropy is supposed to be this curse, right and Sirius
is
> saying how he would like his friend to be suffering it at the
> moment.



Lanval:
PoA, Scholastic edition, p.354:

"And they didn't desert me at all. Instead, they did something for
me that would make my transformations not only bearable, but the
best times of my life...."

No further comment.

Mim:

Fair enough. I took Remus' "You might", said darkly, no less as a 
sign of disapproval in that particular moment. That he might had 
found Sirius just a little callous right then.

Mim:
After he has tried to use said friend as a murder weapon.


Lanval:
Canon, please? "Murder"?

Mim:

Canon says that Sirius wanted to get rid of Snape. Maybe he just 
wanted to scare him but he never says "What the hell, I just wanted 
to scare him" but that it served Snape right. James saw it for what 
it was, whatever Sirius might have called it.

Mim:
> Lupin is completely pathetic, only a notch above Peter and I have
> serious concerns about his morality. What if he had gotten someone
> in one of his many close turns while Marauding around with the
> others? It was a joke to the others but he knew what Lycanthropy
was
> like and didn't stop.
>

Lanval:
He did not, and admits that it was wrong.

Why do teenagers drive too fast, experiment with drugs, have unsafe
sex, play stupid games, etc? Why do teenagers think they are in
complete control, and immortal on top of it?

Sad. All these morally questionable kids in this world.

Mim:

I don't know what kind of kids you know and the wizarding world is 
definitely one notch above ours in terms of danger but I find it 
somewhat sociopathic that every month for 2 and a half years he 
would just go out and do this, regardless of who he might kill or 
infect. 

But JKR seems to think it's the height of cool so I'll leave it 
alone.



Mim:
He knows what Sirius is capable
> of doing and treating as a mere joke.
He knows that Remus is
> dangerous. They are Gryffindors, charming, good in sports and the
> rest. They have much better access to his friend and the House
> divide is already taking her away from him. Is he a jerk for not
> dropping Mulciber and Avery on the spot once she complains?
Perhaps
> but he's only a kid and friends are important esp. with enemies
like
> her oh, so brave housemates around.
>

Lanval:
If Snape's *only a kid* then so are Sirius, James, and Remus.

Mim:
And so is Harry but at Sirius, James and Remus age he wouldn't have 
pulled half of the crap they had. Unless I missed all the times he 
put everyone around him in danger just to get his jollies or the 
time he tried to feed his enemies to monsters or how he has ganged 
up on people and bullied them for existing

Lanval:
And yes, he is a bit of a jerk, for defending Mulciber and Avery,
who have performed Dark Magic on a girl. Which Lily finds MUCH worse
than the prank (and it probably was). According to her it
was "...evil.*Evil*, Sev!"

Mim:

Lily isn't operating with full information here about the Prank. She 
did get more of an idea of the Marauders once married, that's for 
sure. Remus who the others thought might be the spy, Peter who 
delivered them to Voldemort, James who did such a fantastic job 
protecting his family and Sirius who took off in a suicide mission 
after Peter instead of protecting Harry and who had such a 
spectacular meltdown he let everyone think he had betrayed his best 
friend.
Believe it or not I'm not gloating about this as only a deranged 
Snapefan might. I felt truly sorry for them, for Sirius' 
recklessness, James' blind faith to his friends bordering on 
stupidity, Remus' cowardice and even Peter's duplicity. None of them 
ever really grew up.