The Fundamental Message.../ Heroes...

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 176419

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > <snip>
> > I know this won't change your mind at all, Alla. That's not what 
> > I'm trying to do.  I'm just showing how this entire scene played 
> > more as a glorification of suicide to me, than a hero doing what 
> > was necessary.  Obviously, YMMV.
> > <snip>
 
> >>Alla:
> Of course you won't change my mind on this one, just as I will not 
> change yours and I am not going for it either.
> I am accepting in good faith that you think that this chapter       
> showed the glorification of suicide, rather than heroic sacrifice? 
> I mean, I do not think you are just saying it to make a debate?     
> This is truly your reading, etc.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
I'm really not arguing this for the sake of argument.  I really did 
read this scene as an utter perversion of the "give your life for 
your friends" thing.  I actually stopped saying too much about it 
because I seemed a bit on my own.  But then I read Daniel Hammons' 
articles and saw that he saw the text the same way I did.

"So Harry, by blindly and unquestioningly allowing Voldemort to kill 
him, has shown himself to be a better man than any other. 
[...]
"Every single man, woman, and child in Hogwarts is risking their life 
to defeat Voldemort. Every single one of them is confronting death 
(or, if you prefer, "Death") and every single one of them has 
accepted that there are far worse things than dying. But their 
sacrifice doesn't count, because they're actually fighting, which is 
to say, they are trying to survive. In the new morality Rowling wants 
us to accept, the only true way to show courage is to lie down and 
just accept death."
http://www.ferretbrain.com/articles/article-148.html

*That's* what bothered me.  Well, that and the kid's mom encouraging 
him to die.  (Apparently Lily and Bellatrix are BFF?)

> >>Alla:
> <snip> 
> Show me where do you see glorification of the suicide. Where is    
> Harry deciding to die is **glorified**? 

Betsy Hp:
Harry's little cheer-leading squad glorifies his marching off to 
die.  Dumbledore's little speech in the next chapter glorifies 
Harry's willingness to march off to die.  That topped with the fact 
that Harry *never* figured this stuff out for himself but needed to 
be spoon-fed by Dumbledore, means I see this as a glorified look at 
suicide.

I mean, this isn't what JKR meant to write, I grant you.  But it's 
how I put it all together.

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > I mean, the WW is exactly as it was when Voldemort came to power, 
> > so it's not like Dumbledore, Harry or the Order have achieved     
> > anything to slow down the next Evil Overlord when he or she pops 
> > up.
> > <snip>

> >>Rowena Grunnion-Ffitch:
> Soooo...basically you're saying opposing Voldemorte wasn't         
> worthwhile because the WW was and continues to be imperfect? Guess 
> World War II was pretty darn pointless too....

Betsy Hp:
Yup.  That's what I'm saying. <g>  Frankly, the WW is so twisted it 
might have done them some good to suffer under Voldemort until they 
pulled their collective heads out of their asses.  It's a horrible, 
brutal, bigoted world.  Harry and his friends are on the top of the 
heap, but I find it hard feeling all warm and fuzzy for them because 
they won.  As usual.

I'd say World War II would have been as pointless as Harry's 
sacrifice that wasn't *if* the United Nations or the Marshall Plan or 
the work of Gen. MacArthur hadn't occurred.  Harry's defeat of 
Voldemort changed the WW just as the end of WWI changed Europe, IMO.  
IOWs, not in a good way. 

(Um, and *please* note I was just hoping for post-WWII success, not a 
utopia.  That "perfect world" straw man that keeps getting propped up 
is getting a tiny bit old, IMO.  This isn't directed to anyone in 
particular -- I've just seen it put forth a lot.)

> >>Jen: Government is one place to challenge the status quo, which is
> why it's a good thing the better man for the job, Kingsley, took    
> over as Minister. Running a school is also a place to set forth new
> ideals. So Dumbledore wasn't shirking his duties, he just didn't
> choose the MOM as the place to make a difference.  

Betsy Hp:
Yes, but Dumbledore *did* shirk his duties there.  He ignored and 
allowed to fall into ruin, an entire quarter of his school.  He also 
had early warning of, and again ignored, the entrance of a very 
disturbed little boy into the WW.  That he holed up in an office no 
student had hopes of entering (even the one he claimed to love) 
speaks to me less of a dedicated teacher and more of someone working 
for July and August.

Though... ::sigh:: Slytherins are born bad, blah, blah, blah, 
Dumbledore can't save the damned.  (That every argument has to end 
this way makes the arguments not very fun at all, IMO.)

> >>Jen:
> <snip of arguments I was all prepping to make ;-)>
> However, he [Dumbledore] was also the only one who
> volunteered for the job in the second war (and likely the first), so
> sometimes the dirty jobs are left to those willing to apply instead
> of the morally perfect individuals who have more important things to
> do with their time.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
That's not true.  Crouch, Sr. was on the front lines, with his 
Aurors.  Using curses only Harry is blessed enough to use properly, 
true <eg> but fighting the good fight.  Crouch lost everything trying 
to take on Voldemort.  But that wasn't quite good enough for 
Dumbledore for some odd reason.  He needed his own private force.

And then Scrimgeour was out there *begging* for Harry to work with 
him as he did his best to fight Voldemort.  Harry, following 
Dumbledore's lead, refused to work with him and the Ministry fell.  

In many ways, the end of DH brought this quote from "Remains of the 
Day" to mind (as delivered by Christopher Reeves): 

"You are, all of you, amateurs. And international affairs should 
never be run by gentlemen amateurs. Do you have any idea of what sort 
of place the world is becoming all around you? The days when you 
could just act out of your noble instincts, are over. Europe has 
become the arena of realpolitik, the politics of reality. If you 
like: real politics. What you need is not gentlemen politicians, but 
real ones. You need professionals to run your affairs, or you're 
headed for disaster!" 

Dumbledore was the very definition of a "gentleman amateur", IMO.  
Which is why his success was so very WWI-like, IMO.

> >>Pippin:
> <snip>
> I think looking for Slytherin students in the RoR or the final     
> battle is missing the forest for the trees.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
I don't know, Pippin.  It's pretty big frigging tree. <g> 

> >>Pippin:
> What should the Houses united look like? 
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
I'd say it should look like members of each House working together.  
See, I wasn't really looking for the impossible.  (Except of 
course... ::sigh:: Slytherins are bad, can't save the damned, blah, 
blah, blah.)

Betsy Hp