Bathroom scene again WAS: Re:Weasley Family Dynamics

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 164955


> > Magpie:
> <SNIP>
> > I really don't think Harry was so hard done by after 
Sectumsempra. 
> > Draco got sliced up as a result of his attempted Crucio, so he 
> > didn't get off easy. I would hope that if everyone was 
questioned, 
> > hearing about Draco's attempted Unforgivable that would not lead 
> the 
> > faculty to Ginny's loyal girlfriend conclusion that oh, in that 
> case 
> > it was just lucky Harry had something good up his sleeve. I seem 
to 
> > recall McGonagall responding to Harry's claims that Malfoy 
goaded 
> > him into attacking him on the Quidditch Pitch by saying he still 
> did 
> > a stupid thing. 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> LOL. If there is one thing I vehemently disagree with you about, 
that 
> is of course Draco dearest.
> 
> I do not seem to remember that Draco on Quidditch pitch attempted 
to 
> use unforgivable on Harry, so yeah, I share Minerva POV - he did 
> stupid thing there.
> 
> Scene in bathroom reads as something very different to me.

Magpie:
I'm not saying she necessarily would have taken the same position 
here, I was just using it to show that Harry's having his say about 
how Draco used an Unforgivable and started it all would not 
necessarily be all there was to it. I doubt it would, actually, 
given the extent of the damage. I'm sure she gets it's a fight and 
wouldn't be surprised to learn that Draco started it and fought 
viciously--the bathroom's destroyed. She seems like a character more 
likely not looking for reasons this sort of thing is okay, even if 
she does see times when violence is necessary. 


> Magpie:
> > Ironically, Snape doesn't even punish Harry at all for the 
> > Sectumsempra, exactly. He says he thinks Harry is a liar and a 
> cheat 
> > and deserves detention every Saturday--for his year-long use of 
the 
> > book. Ultimately neither boy gets talked to about his use of 
Dark 
> > Magic, and they're both lucky about it. (If it was discussed 
Malfoy 
> > might still have gotten off easier since whatever he was going 
to 
> > do, he didn't finish the curse and possibly wouldn't have been 
able 
> > to complete it any more than Harry, who has also attempted that 
> > Unforgivable without reprimand, albeit only against people he 
> thinks 
> > are Death Eaters.) 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I am still absolutely convinced that the **only** reason Snape 
does 
> not talk about Sectusemptra much is because he is afraid that 
Draco 
> is going to end up in Azkaban.
> 
> And Snape did not punish Harry? Detentions are punishment, are 
they 
> not?

Magpie:
Whatever Snape's reasons for talking or not talking about 
Sectumsempra, the detentions are not specifically linked to Harry 
hurting Draco and using Sectumsempra. Snape always wants to punish 
Harry and give him detention, and when he gives him detention he 
says, "I think you are a liar and a cheat and you deserve to be in 
detention with me every Saturday." They've moved on to the question 
of the book by then, which Harry is lying about. So Harry's getting 
what's being asked for anyway--no one is on his case for hurting 
someone else without acknowledging it was self-defense. 

So Harry's not in a situation where he's being punished for hurting 
Draco for no reason and if only people knew what really happened 
things would be different.  Nothing about Harry's punishment hinges 
on Draco's innocence. On the contrary, the whole detention shifts 
quickly to Snape being a jerk and wanting an opportunity to tease 
Harry because of his own issues--Snape, Sirius, etc. 


> Magpie:
> I don't think Harry would have come off well as a 
> > character if after that scene he was focused on it being unfair 
> > because it was self-defense rather than having twinges of 
> conscience.
> > <SNIP>
> 
> Alla:
> 
> As long as we do not forget that it **was** self defense, I do not 
> mind Harry having twinges of conscience.
> 
> As I also mentioned in the past, this is great that Harry having 
twin-
> ges of conscience, but I hope he will not have more twinges than 
self-
> defense with the wrong course.> He was not looking for a fight at 
all, Malfoy started it and I was 
> scared for Harry when I started reading this scene, I really did. 
> Distraught enemy can do things to you that when such enemy is in 
> normal state of mind IMO.

Magpie:
I don't think anyone, least of all Harry, forgets that Malfoy 
started it (when does he ever forget that?), and Malfoy was in a 
state of mind where he was fighting like a desperate person. But 
this issue doesn't really effect anything in canon because Harry's 
*not* be accused of not having a reason to cast his curse or being 
much criticized for hurting Malfoy. Ginny backs him up on that, Ron 
brushes the injury aside, Hermione just thinks it's proving her 
opinion of the Prince and cautions him about Quidditch. The only 
person we actually hear has actually villified him is Pansy, because 
she's Draco's girlfriend. Even when we're told the Slytherins are 
jeering at him it's just described as general jeering.

Alla: 
> So, yeah, I truly think that the books do not glorify killings 
etc, 
> but I think that it may be that JKR goes for self-defense as 
special 
> case.

Magpie:
I think she put this scene together very carefully--like a lot of 
her scenes--so that there's a number of things going on in it. She 
was certainly careful about the situation in which Harry used 
Sectumsempra (on the ground, in response to an expected Crucio) and 
the whole fight in general (Draco vulnerable, Harry *not* being 
there to fight--in all ways different from their every encounter). 
But this is why I think it misses a lot of the scene to turn it into 
Harry unfairly accused of using his potentially deadly curse 
offensively instead of to keep himself getting hurt. That's not an 
issue in the book at all. Nobody cares. It *would* be an issue if 
Harry were on trial for murder or something, but he just gets 
detention. (Had he only said, "Sectumsem--" in some other situation 
and been stopped, I doubt he'd have gotten more than lost points.) 
Harry's anger at Snape and Snape's detentions are not about making 
Harry feel badly--or feel anything--about hurting Draco. Draco, in 
fact, practically disappears as a character and a concern until the 
end of the book. I think JKR very deliberately makes any issues 
about Harry's use of the curse between Harry and himself (or Harry 
and God, or however one sees that sort of thing). He's free to take 
Ginny's attitude and justify himself completely through self-defense 
while Draco pays the price for his daring to use Crucio in the 
hospital wing. 

-m