Lying and Cheating & Golpalotts law.

[lealess]

No: HPFGUIDX 165541

> bboyminn:
> 
> The discussion has gotten far too deep and complex for
> me, so I will confine my comment to one small aspect;
> Golpalotts Law, and the application of Golpalotts Law,
> which for simplicity I will call 'Golpalotts Method'.
> 
> This Method seems very effective if you are /creating/
> a poison, and need to make sure you have an antidote
> for it. But in a spontanious and dymanic poisioning 
> situation, such as the situation with Ron and the mead,
> it's worthless. By the time the deciphered the 
> individual poisons and determine the individual antidotes
> plus the 'added' ingredient and brew up the resultng 
> potion, Ron would have been dead.
> 
> <SNIP>
> 
> 'Golpalotts Method' was implied in the potions lesson,
> but it wasn't stated (as far as I remember). True Harry
> did not apply 'Golpalotts Method', but he did find a
> fast and practical solution to a very real and likely
> problem. And as far as I'm concerned, he learned that
> particular lesson better than any of the other students,
> because Harry taught himself, aided by the 'Book', to
> find practical solutions to practical problems; not
> theoretical solutions to theoretical problems.
>
> <SNIPPED TO REORGANIZE>
> 
> Regardless, how any student does in class is irrelvant.
>
> <SNIP>  
> 
> Classroom grades are meaningless beyond being a marker of
> progress, and from Snape's class we see how that 'marker
> of progress' can be greatly distorted by a bad teacher. 
> So, it is hard to say Harry cheated on something that is
> essentially meaningless. It's hard for me to say Harry is
> cheating because Slughorn feels the urge to butter Harry
> up and fawn over his successes. 
> 
> In the antidote lesson, that same universal antidote 
> information was available to every student. They had all
> learned it in lessons with Snape, and they greatly learned
> about Mandrake universal antidote during the Basalisk 
> attacks. It seems to me that rather than lost the lesson,
> Harry actually found a better method from what he felt 
> was a more reliable source. Hard to fault him for that.
> 
> Just one man's opinion.
> 
> Steve/bboyminn
>

I teach vocational writing.  The point of the class is for a student 
to actually write, to learn the process by doing it themselves.  Part 
of that involves using techniques I try to teach them, such as 
outlining papers and constructing paragraphs.  Part of it is stepping 
onto the critical thinking paths I try to show them.  I do that by 
asking students to rephrase in their own words notes they take in 
class, to analyze many kinds of writing, and to complete research 
projects.  It's a little like potions, without the chemicals.  At the 
end of the class, students should have enough practice and 
theoretical background to go into the workplace and write 
independently with purpose and clarity.

Suppose I assign an essay on antidotes to known poisons.  Most 
students toil away on the subject, and maybe even learn something 
through the process, both about writing and about antidotes.  But lo, 
one student sits fidgeting in class, not asking for help from his 
usual cohorts, then produces a printout of a Wikipedia article on 
bezoars.  I doubt I would be besotted enough with the student to 
praise him for his cheek.  On the contrary.  But I am not Slughorn.

What has this student gained by giving me the printout on bezoars 
(besides an F)?  Real-life experience?  Suppose this student gets 
into a situation where he has to defend his mentor against the 
slander of Voldemort and the attacks of the undead.  Suppose that 
student doesn't remember his mentor's instructions on how to rebut 
the undead.  No matter... the mentor might be able to handle that 
part himself, but there is still Voldemort's poison to worry about.  
Suppose that student has time to get back to the castle, only to find 
that not only is there is no bezoar-type Wikipedia article on 
slander, but the entire Internet is down!  Would that student have 
the ability to apply writing principles to save his mentor?  No... 
call Severus (the good student, the "writing" instructor, the guy who 
kicked Harrys butt all over the field because the student wouldn't 
work to learn non-verbal spells or how to stop broadcasting his 
thoughts).

I have heard the "real-life" arguments all my life.  The fact is that 
some classes do prepare students for real life.  Not everyone wants 
to make a career of writing.  That doesn't change the fact that in 
our world, writing is an essential skill for most who want to 
succeed, if only in communicating their thoughts to others.  At 
Hogwarts, it seems students study potions in their initial classes, 
with no exceptions.  Therefore, making potions must be an essential 
skill in the magical world.

> 
> Let me remind everyone that how any particular 
> student does in class is meaningless. Harry does
> terrible in Snape's potions class leading up to the OWL
> test, yet he gets a 'B' (by standard letter grades). 
> That's not too shabby. That shows that Harry is quite 
> capable of brewing potions when Snape is off his back.
> 

Snape is a good teacher, after all.  He assigns a lot of essays and, 
under him, Harry actually has to work in class.  Harry learned what 
he knows of the subject from Snape and from the work he had to do.  
Contrary to Slughorn's delusion, Harry doesn't seem to have a natural 
feel for potions.  Slughorn is not teaching him.  Snape is still 
teaching him, but without Snape's actual presence, Harry can coast.

> Further note that regardless of what formula Harry
> uses, he does very successful brew his potions in 
> Slughorn's potions class. When he successfully brews 
> potions, it's hard to say his reputation isn't deserved.
> Now, Harry looks corrospondingly better, because the 
> references all the other students are using are so poor.
> But I just don't see what Harry is doing as "Cheating",
> because it shows the regardless of what recipe he uses,
> if left alone, he can /apply/ them and that is the 
> biggest factor.
> 

When it comes to dealing with real-life situations, not classroom 
situations, Harry relies on instinct more than learning, on 
instructions remembered at the last moment.  Many have said that 
Harry is unprepared to face Voldemort, and this is probably true.  I 
expect him to pull rabbits out of his hat for many of the tasks he 
has to face, the rabbits being his friends and those remembered 
instructions, like "Expelliarmus."  However, if he fails in any task, 
I bet it will be because he didn't listen to his mentors and apply 
their teachings.  He has the instinct, but not the skills or the 
discipline, to write.

lealess